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Pastimes : Understanding Islam -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: James Calladine who wrote (456)	11/9/2001 1:25:44 PM
From: uu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2926

Thanks Jim for your response. A couple of points though... You state: > change your own consciousness -- pray for them -- treat them not as separate people but as other versions of you -- approach them in the mode of COOPERATION and TOLERANCE Going back to Torus's question regarding Islam... How on earth can we follow your suggestions as expressed above (especially with Cooporation and Tolerance parts), when a bunch of psychopaths calling themselves Muslims want to take your heart out, and destory everything you stand for?! Surely you are not suggesting to cooporate with them in that respect? or are you? I think in an idealistic world Adi Da's teachings would work perfectly. However I am not sure if for example someone with a Jewish faith following Adi Da's teachings can really gain much when living in (lets say: Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan in the area where you have the psychopath Muslims concentrated, or Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Indonesia,etc. etc.). On the other hand his teachings would work best if you are living in a free thinking society such as the U.S. One common thing I have noticed among all such peaceful, logical philosophers is that their followers tend to live in places where there is peace (not only from an economic, political and social standpoint, but also from Natural surroundings). Hare Krishna's for example also say a lot of things on peace, and love, etc. But they all seem to be isloated in their own world somewhere on top of some mountain facing the ocean with lots of birds, and fresh air! I wonder if they would really follow their own teachings once them come down from the top of that beautiful mountain and into the real world. Regards,

To: James Calladine who wrote (456)	11/9/2001 3:28:25 PM
From: Torus	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2926

I think we may be getting off topic but I'd like to express a few more thoughts and perhaps direct us closer to Understanding Islam. he (Adi Da) stresses that there is NO separation from God, ever, because everything is permeated by, and lived by the Divine, and yet the Divine is personal. The separation from God, he says, is as a result of something WE are doing, which he calls the "ego" or the self-contraction. Let us for the moment accept at face value that the Divine is personal. Ego is "the self especially as contrasted with another self or the world". If one celebrates the self and one's self is not separate from the divine, then - by the transitive property - one celebrates the divine. I have long objected to the degradation of ego and the self in many religions including the one in which I was raised. The matter of one's relationship with God is traditionally the central part of any religion. However, it is also true that these teachings have, traditionally, not been widely offered. I disagree though I don't think it is particularly beneficial to argue the point. I think that the core teachings of most religions (and certainly the most popular ones) are laid bare for all to see. They are written in the various holy books which in the case of Christianity you can pick up in every hotel room, in every library, and in untold millions (billions?) of homes. The core teachings are debated and studied constantly and appear in print in the theological journals which are readily available. The core teachings are preached in pulpits on a daily basis - you need only to enter the place of worship to hear them. If you find the core teachings difficult to find then we will have to agree to disagree on this point. And of course you have to look for them! No worthwhile education on any subject benefits from a passive student. But in my opinion you don't have to look very hard. I came to this thread in order to try to learn about Islam. I'm happy to hear about its core teachings, but given the current situation I'm much more interested in how those core teachings are put into practice. So far I feel the people who claim to want to educate the rest of us about Islam are sadly lacking in the ability to do so. They run from challenges rather than answer them. I am an educator, and I am never so satisfied as when a student of mine challenges the premises or the results that I present. That is how we move beyond the boundaries of our current knowledge. In other words, can we celebrate our SIMILARITIES rather than our differences? "What can I do to ease the pain of those suffering under an oppressive religious dogma?" I would suggest: -- change your own consciousness -- pray for them -- treat them not as separate people but as other versions of you -- approach them in the mode of COOPERATION and TOLERANCE The ideas you have expressed are - in my opinion - noble, but naive. How can one celebrate similarities rather than differences if the differences are so profound that one party wishes to destroy the other? You suggest that I should change my own consciousness. To what? I am constantly changing my consciousness as I learn and grow...and I believe we all do so. I'm sorry James, but that is a pretty fluffy answer to a direct question. You suggest I should pray for them. This is not the forum for a discussion of the power of prayer, but although my prayers may be useful on some level, the immediate benefit to those who are suffering is dubious at best. You suggest I should treat them not as individuals but as separate version of myself. How and why? Finally you suggest I should approach them in a mode of cooperation and tolerance. I think we may have switched subjects from those who are suffering to those who are causing that suffering. If that is the case then I'm afraid I cannot tolerate religious brutality. I have complete tolerance for religious expression that does not harm others, but I condemn violence. I am struggling with my acceptance of the violence we are using to stop religious violence, but perhaps that is a subject for another thread. Anyhow, you seem like a nice guy, but the teachings of Adi Da as you have expressed them seem pretty unsatisfactory so far. Don't be upset...I find most philosophies to be lacking as well. Thanks for trying to help.