SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/11/2001 9:01:18 PM
From: Raymond Duray  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
U.S. Policy on Iraq - No Breakup, No Removal of the Regime

Hi Hawkmoon,

Re: But I rather think you're correct, since we're just looking for an excuse to get rid of Saddam

On Frontline last Thursday evening there was a very revealing moment in an interview with Brent Scowcroft, George H.W. Bush's National Security Advisor. (see below for excerpt from the interview.)

pbs.org

He contradicted the conventional wisdom that the U.S. government's policy is to "get rid" of Saddam. While this gets plenty of press coverage, and Saddam is a swell villain for a less than well-educated public who need "black and white" foreign policy answers, Scowcroft assured the interviewer that our policy really just a continuation of the Great Game decision of the British around 1920 to simply create Iraq our of whole cloth, that is to say, there never was any ethnic or historical basis for the nation's founding. It was designed as a wedge between the rather more sinister (in the eyes of the Brits) possibility of the rise of a regional rival to British hegemon. The three nations that are kept at bay by Iraq's presence are Persia, the new Ottoman region and the Damascus Arabs, i.e. Iran, Turkey and Syria.

Examining the policy thrusts of the U.S. government in this light over the past couple of decades indicates that our key governmental decision makers actually have a tolerance for Saddam Hussein as a stabilizing force in the region, even while the American public is fed a lot of propaganda about an "evil dictator".

-Ray

Here is an excerpt from the transcript of the Scowcroft interview:

Q: We didn't cut off their gasoline supplies.

A: First of all, one of our objectives was not to have Iraq split up into constituent ... parts. It's a fundamental interest of the United States to keep a balance in that area, in Iraq. ...


Q: So part of the reason to not go after his army at that point was to make sure there was a unified country, whether or not it was ruled by Saddam?

A: Well, partly. But suppose we went in and intervened, and the Kurds declare independence, and the Shiites declare independence. Then do we go to war against them to keep a unified Iraq?


Q: But why would we care at that point?

A: We could care a lot.


Q: I thought we had two interests. One was to evict the Iraqi Army from Kuwait. But the other really was to get Saddam out of power.

A: No, it wasn't.



Q: Well, either covertly or overtly.

A: No. No, it wasn't. That was never... You can't find that anywhere as an objective, either in the U.N. mandate for what we did, or in our declarations, that our goal was to get rid of Saddam Hussein.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/11/2001 9:28:51 PM
From: KLP  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawk...Is the Green Party in Germany related to the Green Party in the US? And is there a link that would explain why they are opposed to the bombing?

Wonder what would happen if the identical thing happened in their largest city....and after a long standing declaration from bin Laden that "Al-Queda is at war with your country...." What is their foreign policy about such an act....(or in our case...we have had several acts of terrorism thrust upon the US by this group...)



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/11/2001 9:38:29 PM
From: BigBull  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
What a turn around in the Afghan war! If this article is true then this is turning into a good old fashioned rout and not some "strategic retreat" by the Talibs.

portal.telegraph.co.uk

Whew! Only days ago the pundits were telling all and sundry that the Northern Alliance would be lucky to secure Bagram. But now It's Mazar, Talokan, possibly Herat and Kabul soon?

God bless the B-52!

Time for Apaches and Longbows soon.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/11/2001 10:05:59 PM
From: kumar  Respond to of 281500
 
The US was attacked and I don't, as of yet, see the "full wrath" of NATO being brought down upon the Taliban..

To paraphrase statements from administration officials :
"...the mission defines the coalition, the coalition does not define the mission..."

Very sensible, IMHO.

cheers, kumar



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/11/2001 10:54:00 PM
From: Condor  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
The US was attacked and I don't, as of yet, see the "full wrath" of NATO being brought down upon the Taliban..
Did I dream this or did the US not request NATO to provide the service of providing aerial military border security to the US? Much ado was made of this by the US when the mission was accepted and implemented by NATO. Your off handed dismissal of countries trying to overcome their internal politics and participate in the ATTACK ON THE US endears you to no one. For goodness sakes Hawk put your brain in gear before your mouth.
C



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (9916)11/12/2001 9:11:06 AM
From: Elsewhere  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
And the German government is facing a "no-confidence" vote because of Green Party opposition to the bombing of Afghanistan.

I guess there will be a 75% majority in favor of military support for the USA when the German parliament will vote on Thursday.

Here is a more detailed view of the German stance:

telepolis.de

Off to War
David Hudson - November 12, 2001
Weekly Review: Germany prepares to leap into Operation Enduring Freedom with 3900 troops

Just six weeks ago, speculation was running rampant that Germany's governing coalition of Social Democrats (SPD) and Greens would be another casualty of the September 11 attacks in New York and Washington (see [1]Red and Green All Over?). A few weeks had passed and the US hadn't done anything yet. But suppose it called on NATO -- and thus, Germany, too -- to join whatever military reprisal it was cooking up? Would the Greens play along, and if not, then what? When the bombing began in Afghanistan on October 7, though, it looked as if the US and the UK were going it alone. The "red-green" coalition was safe. Now, that reprieve is over.

Last Tuesday, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder announced that the US had requested a total of 3900 soldiers to serve in five specific areas: 800 to operate Germany's Fuchs (Fox) tank-like vehicles for the detection of atomic, biological or chemical (ABC) weapons on the battlefield; 250 to evacuate the wounded; 100 "special forces"; 500 for air transport; 1800 on the seas to protect ships with dangerous loads.

It was a request, Schröder said, he intended to grant. You couldn't just go around promising "unlimited solidarity" for weeks on end, as he'd been doing, and then leave America in the lurch. It's a rather detailed list, one evidently designed to be as palatable as possible to the pacifists in the government, which would be a considerable number of Social Democrats and perhaps even a majority of Greens. Note that German soldiers aren't being called on to participate in the bombing or to rush in to take a direct part in any imminent ground war. Note, too, that the US hasn't called on Germany via NATO. France and Italy are sending in troops as well, but the US is building its "international coalition" on a nation-by-nation basis.

The constitution drawn up by the Federal Republic of Germany in the years following the end of World War II stipulates that the Bundestag, Germany's parliament, must give its thumbs up before the country's armed forces can be sent abroad. With no one really anxious to see German troops on the march again, it took a while before the matter was even brought up. Throughout the Cold War, the primary job of both Germanys was to sit tight, make no waves and quietly accept the protection of their respective superpowers.

The Wall fell, peace broke out all over, but as these things so go, war was hot on its heels. In August 1990, two months before the unification of Germany's two halves, 500 soldiers were on their way to the Persian Gulf as part of NATO's contribution to the beefing up of Bush Senior's international coalition facing down Saddam Hussein. German soldiers hung around after the Gulf War, too, to clear mines and help oversee the disposal of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Years before they were finished there, though, Yugoslavia started breaking up. In conjunction with Ifor, Sfor, Kfor or NATO, a few hundred soldiers here, a few hundred soldiers there were sent in to help put out the various fires. Schröder's government was elected in late 1998 to replace Helmut Kohl's during a bit of lull, but just half a year later, the most dramatic of these fires flamed up: Kosovo.

Since then, Schröder and Green party leader and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer have spent much of their time in office convincing their own parties that each of these circumstances is uniquely urgent. Milosevic had to be stopped, but since we're in the neighborhood, we can't let the situation in Macedonia get out of hand, either. 600 German troops are there even now.

Those are the arguments spoken out loud in the Bundestag. The unspoken subtext of the Schröder-Fischer project is significantly different, however: a lot of water has gone under the bridge since the two world wars of the 20th century. We're a big country now, the biggest on the continent, the economic engine of Europe, the world's third-largest economy. We can't shirk our responsibilities.

It's this subtext that Oskar Lafontaine, Schröder's former finance minister, was referring to when he accused the government of Wichtigtuerei -- that is, it's getting too big for its britches. "I'm critical of all this haughty talk of a new military role for Germany in the world," he told the newsweekly Stern.

As for the Greens, their problems lie more with any role at all in this particular war, never mind all the grandstanding. Even before last week, Green leaders were calling for a pause in the bombing so that humanitarian aide can reach needy Afghans before winter sets in. 7.5 million face [2]starvation, civilian casualties were getting out of hand and, at least before the taking of Mazar-i-Sharif, it all appeared to be for nought.

And Schröder wants to leap in? As Goedart Palm writes in Telepolis, "Even taking Kosovo into consideration, this military mission marks a [3]historical caesura in what has up to now been the Bundeswehr's relatively leisurely task of peacekeeping ... Schröder won't be able to jump off this hellish ride on the most dangerous roller coaster in German post-war history."

On the day after Schröder's announcement, Harold Neuber found the [4]conservative opposition a lot more comfortable with it than the chancellor's own governing party and partner. But while Christian Democratic Union leader Angela Merkel echoed Margaret Thatcher's "no alternative" hard line, it was Kohl's former defense minister, Volker Rühe, interestingly enough, who was the only skeptical voice of the bunch.

Then came the strangest wrinkle in Schröder's campaign. US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed he hadn't drawn up this 5-point request at all. To be fair, [5]what he said was, "We asked for broad support; we asked people to come forward with what they thought would be appropriate and what they felt was comfortable for them, as opposed to our asking for certain specific things, which we tend not to do." National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice had to save the day by announcing that Germany was offering "nothing more, nothing less" than what the US wanted.

But the episode only strengthened the impression that Schröder wanted the Bundeswehr in on Operation Enduring Freedom even more than the US did. Which sounds less like reluctantly facing up to responsibilities and more like Wichtigtuerei.

So what will happen? Well, the soldiers are going. With the opposition behind the motion, a parliamentary majority is assured in the coming week. What's far less assured is a majority of "red-green" parliamentarians. Fully one third of the Greens are expected to vote No. Over the weekend, Schröder let it be known that he wouldn't hold it against them. After all, he only has to live with them for ten more months, that is, until the national elections next September.

Links
[1] heise.de
[2] alternet.org
[3] heise.de
[4] heise.de
[5] faz.com{B1311FCC-FBFB-11D2-B228-00105A9CAF88}&doc={F17F0AFD-16F2-4807-844C-9F0F24FEDF54}