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Politics : Right Wing Extremist Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Selectric II who wrote (20471)	11/20/2001 9:48:21 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 59480

I.D.'ing everybody in the country does not provide me any warm fuzzies at all. I.D.'ing people who shouldn't be here so they can have their status changed, and keeping better track of foreign visitors, does. That's just the point. This isn't about warm fuzzies. It's about risk reduction. We can deal with this rationally or emotionally. You can't keep the bad guys off planes without a positive ID system. You may not keep them all off even with one, but you improve your chances. A negative ID system doesn't accomplish anything except stroking one's fuzzies. Karen

To: Selectric II who wrote (20471)	11/20/2001 10:40:11 AM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 59480

Hi Selectric II; Re "I.D.'ing everybody in the country does not provide me any warm fuzzies at all." What it has provided you with is an opportunity to suggest that those who support universal IDs are cowards and unpatriotic. Re: "I.D.'ing people who shouldn't be here so they can have their status changed, and keeping better track of foreign visitors, does." Abdul arrives on a tourist Visa to the US. Abdul overstays his Visa. What does Abdul do to get around? Since the Americans don't have a national ID card, he throws away his Binladenistan passport and US Visa, and gets a fake ID card made from some out of the way state (like Idaho), and flashes that, when he wants to buy booze, instead. If a national ID card was required (*as is already required of all the citizens to obtain employment), he'd instead have to counterfeit the national ID document. There was a time when banks issued their own paper money. That's why they're still called "banknotes". That freedom went away, but the result is that when you walk into a deli, the owner doesn't have to look up your banknotes to see if they are counterfeit or were issued by bankrupt banks. This is all to the improvement of our commerce, it had very little to do with a loss of freedom. The fact is that you are already required to show your identity papers repeatedly in multiple circumstances. The fact is that these papers are easily counterfeited for the same reason that paper money was once easily counterfeited. The question is do we want our identity documents (which we already use daily!) to be easily counterfeited or do we want them to be difficult to be counterfeited.* As far as freedom, the only freedom being removed here is the freedom to break the law, the effect on those who already obey the law is negligible. There was a time when identity documents were not required. That was a time when the country had far, far fewer people, and those people were far, far more limited in how much they could move around. *It once took 3 weeks to get from Florida to New York, and every stranger stood out like the bastard at the family reunion.* What was suitable identification in those circumstances is not necessarily suitable for our current situation. As far as your quoting Benjamin Franklin in support of your position: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." #reply-16683548, I find this to be rather unconvincing. No liberty is being given up here, nor is any "safety" obtained temporary. If you don't want to drive, you don't have to get a driver's license. This has been the law for close to a century. Why aren't you complaining about the fact that such licenses are already required? I don't want someone else cashing my checks when I lose them, nor do I want them using my credit cards. This is not a matter of "temporary safety" I'm looking for, it is simple law and order. We've already achieved this in our currency, it's high time we raised our identity docuements to at least the same standard. What is being done here is simply the reconciliation and rationalization of *50 different identity document programs into a single united one. It should have been done decades ago. -- Carl P.S. Using quoting the founding fathers out of context is fun. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.*" -- Samuel Johnson,