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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Solon who wrote (38159)11/21/2001 6:00:23 PM
From: maried.  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
A very reflective post, Solon.

I'm sure many of us know pregnant women who have consciously made the choice to carry their babies to term even when they know there are serious risks to their own lives. It is a horribly, difficult decision to make but if that child was conceived with intent and love, the decision to abort would be as difficult.

I have always had great empathy for the father who seems to be the one that must make the decision of "one or the other". With today's medical marvels, the number of cases that fall into this category are so limited. Both mother and child are looked at as equal and doctors fight for both lives.

In those rare cases when a decision must be made, my God,would never judge...but would shed a tear, and hope that man will somehow learn to save both.
Marie



To: Solon who wrote (38159)11/21/2001 6:40:31 PM
From: J. C. Dithers  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
This whole argument is entirely specious....

until some qualified person can describe a medical condition wherein killing a fetus is necessary to save a pregnant woman's life. If potentially fatal complications occur in a pregnancy, a reputable doctor's first objective would be to save both lives. In later term pregnancies, this would often be possible through Caesarian deliveries or induced labor. In these cases, there would also be instances where the baby did not survive, but clearly there was no intent or effort to kill the baby. In earlier term pregnancies, the doctor is confronted with a situation where the fetus is likely (but not certain) to die if removed from the womb. At the same time, given that the complications are potentially fatal to the mother, they are therefore potentially fatal to the fetus if the pregnancy is allowed to continue. A doctor who refused to act under such circumstances would be violating his sworn oath to use best effort to save lives. If the doctor removed the fetus in this circumstance, his intent still is clearly to save lives, not to take them.

Moreover, complications in a pregnancy could not be the existence of the fetus, per se. Pregnancy is a normal condition for a woman. A complication must, by definition, be something abnormal in the pregnancy. Whatever this abnormal condition may be, it is not the fetus itself. The doctor, therefore, attempts to correct the abnormality. In the course of doing so, the fetus may sometimes die. Once again, this outcome cannot reasonably be characterized as "killing the baby," as if that was the intent, and a deliberate act.

I believe that this whole controversy stems from the fact that therapeutic abortions are allowed in the law, and that they are abused by some women (and perhaps doctors) who justify the abortion for some flimsy reason, such as even the "psychological" health of the mother. This becomes just plain-vanilla abortion masquerading under the guise of "therapeutic intervention." I would agree that in these cases the fetus has been intentionally and deliberately killed.



To: Solon who wrote (38159)11/26/2001 1:33:09 PM
From: TimF  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
The fetus had nothing to do with the danger to the mother. The fetus is not trying to kill the mother. The fetus
is innocent of intent. The fetus is a person guileless and guiltless.


The fetus is guiltless and is not trying to kill its mother, but it is inaccurate to say it has nothing to do with the danger to the mother.

Even when people equally contribute to a situation of life and death (such as two people, one life
jacket)--it is not considered as self defence when one them forcibly takes the life jacket.


If one person takes it from the other no, if one person just grabs a floating life jacket and the other person has none it isn't considered murder. Imagine the person left without the life jacket is the fetus. The person with the life jacket is the mother. The person without the life jacket is trying to hold on to the person with the life jacket. The seas are getting heavy and both will drown if they are supported by only the one life jacket. The person with the jacket could do nothing and have both die, or she could give the jacket to the person without one and die herself saving the other person, but she does not she pushes the person grabbing on to her away. He then drowns. Is she guilty of murder? This analogy doesn't explain the reason for any bias for the mother but it is an example of self defense against someone who is not trying to kill you.

From a later post of yours (number 38494) -

No it is not. If the life of the mother is at risk, the fetus is secondary. The courts have ruled that the fetus
may (I believe that may be read as "must") be killed, if this will serve to remove the risk to the life of the
mother, or the impairment of her health. I am told that 99+% of people are supportive of this bias. Of course,
when caesarians can be performed without compromising the physical or emotional health of the mother, they
may be done...if there is a doctor/mother consensus.

It has been said that 99+% of people have a bias against the life of the fetus.


I did not suggest that 99+% would support the idea that no risk at all should be allowed to the mother even to avoid any level or risk to the child. The 99+% that I was talking about would be when the mother's death was near certain if the child was allowed to develop any more. In most of those cases the fetus is going to die anyway. Cases where their is a choice and either the fetus or the mother can almost definitely live at the expense of having the other almost definitely die are very rare.

Tim