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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/23/2001 9:32:55 PM
From: BirdDog  Respond to of 281500
 
I'd like to nominate this cogent and honest assessment of our nation's policies regarding the pursuit of war as another outstanding example of the intelligence and integrity...

And I was naive enough to think you were talking about the Weekly World News.... Doh!
Newsflash! Batboy fighting with our troops in Afghanistan!

BirdDog@OhHomeOnTheRange.com



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 12:19:27 AM
From: Rollcast...  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
You would.

LOL



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 2:03:50 AM
From: ig  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
I'd like to nominate this cogent and honest assessment of our nation's policies regarding the pursuit of war as another outstanding example of the intelligence and integrity in the SI community:

Now tell us: Is that nomination another example of the "wry sense of humor" you claimed in post Message 16693160 ?

ig



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 2:22:49 AM
From: Dennis O'Bell  Respond to of 281500
 
Simplistic conspiracy theories are like you know what, everyone has one.

What the War on Terrorism is Really All About



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 3:51:42 AM
From: SirRealist  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
While I do not doubt that our political system, like all political systems, is rife with examples of policies being bent to boost business. In most of what Lee said, I can thus agree.

Can that be weighed morally as a 'bad' thing? The first rule of politics and biology is self-preservation, and if our politicians represent a capitalistic system, is it bad to grant government dollars that sustain and promote capitalism?

However, profit motive is not all that is behind policy, though it likely is a majority position. Having a fresh 'bogeyman' is also good psychology that aids in controlling the masses. If there's not a real war, it's a War on Drugs. It keeps the mob focused on anyone-but-the rich-and-their-politicians, which is an obvious safety valve. In times of military crisis, the Congress & country historically unite around the Prez we were all just carping about yesterday.

As well, world occurrences and popular opinions interject as well, so it is too simplistic to suggest money alone is the root cause of all decision-making.

And then there's this from Lee's statement: >>Suddenly we conveniently had the WTC disaster, we have a whole new excuse now to get things going again and will use it as much as possible.<<

Even though I think Lee may have misspoke in that first clause, I can't be sure. But in or out of the context of his larger opinion, there is not, in my mind, anything that could be construed as a convenience, with the WTC attack.

Convenient in that we gained a common enemy to unite popular opinion against, therefore, spending more? No, not even that. The government, as we learned in the Gulf War, is perfectly capable of creating foes with strong popular support, but without the massive losses of life and property.

So, other than a bit of oversimplification and the unfortunate use of the word 'convenient', Lee's point is well-made. But, as Kruschev said: "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge where there is no river."



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 12:05:12 PM
From: Jerry in Omaha  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Ray,

Thanks for bringing Lee's posting to my attention. He's close, but not quite on the mark.

#reply-16695153 <<I don't think it is about growth. Just sustaining the economy over tough time troughs...We don't need fear, just enough of a perceived threat to keep the American public on board. Now that we have had an attack on our shores, we can probably milk this for at least 10 years if not more. By then, we hopefully will be in a new bull market. Lather Rinse Repeat.... We need an enemy of convenience at all times and will make sure we always have one. >>

From Thomas Pynchon's Gravitiy's Rainbow: <<It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted...secretly, it was being dictated instead by the needs of technology...by a conspiracy between human beings and techniques, by something that needed the energy-burst of war, crying, "Money be damned, the very life of [insert name of Nation] is at stake," but meaning, most likely, dawn is nearly here, I need my night's blood, my funding, funding, ahh more, more...The real crises were crises of allocation and priority, not among firms -- it was only staged to look that way -- but among the different Technologies, Plastics, Electronics, Aircraft, and their needs which are understood only by the ruling elite...>>

And make no mistake about it. In a "free democracy" the "ruling elite" are not necessarily those with guns or the powers to make laws. The "manufacture of consent" necessary to get any official elected *(no matter how many political parties there are, llmarinen)* really is the ur-domain of marketeers and spin doctors.

Lee's posting hints of a bit of marketing apocrypha where a marketing manager told the shampoo company president he could instantly double the sales of the company's product with the addition of a single word to the product's directions for use -- Repeat. As in <<Lather, Rinse, Repeat.>>

Pynchon also wrote: <<What more do they want? She asks this seriously, as if there's a real conversion between information and lives. Well, strange to say, there is. Written down in the Manual, on file at the War Department. Don't forget the real business of the War is buying and selling. The murdering and the violence are self-policing, and can be entrusted to non-professionals. The mass nature of wartime death is useful in many ways. It serves as spectacle, as diversion from the real movements of the War. It provides raw material to be recorded into History, so that children may be taught History as sequences of violence, battle after battle, and be more prepared for the adult world. Best of all, mass death's a stimulus to just ordinary folks, little fellows, to try 'n' grab a piece of that Pie while they're still here to gobble it up. [Witness President Bush exhorting us all to visit the malls -- JiO] The true war is a celebration of markets. Organic markets, carefully styled "black" by the professionals, spring up everywhere. Scrip, Sterling, Reichsmarks continue to move, severe as classical ballet, inside their antiseptic marble chambers. >>

Santayana notwithstanding; like shampoo, history has repetition built right into its instruction set as authored by the victorious. And let's not forget, official secrecy is a prerequisite to official misinformation. "All the better to fool you with, my dears!"

Jerry in Omaha



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (11317)11/24/2001 3:31:12 PM
From: maceng2  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
I would just like to say, Lee is employed in the USA armed forces (USAF). If he feels negative about a situation, it is only natural he sees negativity in his surroundings. Bombs and death, the business of death, is a difficult employ. The USA military has pulled (once again) the rabbit out of the hat.

A little magic does help now and again -g-

My sincere regards to the USAF and USA military forces, hope you know some UK guys chipped in a little where they could and,

God Bless,

Pearly.