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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: MulhollandDrive who wrote (38590)	11/24/2001 2:54:44 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 82486

Saying he is "fat", "lousy dancer", etc..and in the same breath saying "coward" connotes the same value to coward, imo. It may not be your intent, but I do think it is the net effect. The list wasn't nonsense. It was a list of arbitrarily brainstormed negative characteristics to see if I could prompt anyone in the coward camp to acknowledge anything positive about him at all. It was a test of my black/white premise. Yes, the list of negative characteristics included words with varying degrees of importance. That was necessary, not to downplay the relative weight of cowardice, but to see if someone could grant him even a quality of trivial importance, like good looks, if they didn't want to accord him any of the big ones, like bravery. So why you are having such difficulty in calling him a coward, I'm not sure I understand. Partly because, for some reason I don't understand, it's absolutely essential to some people on the coward side of this argument that that particular word be applied, seemingly whether it fits or not, to the point of ridiculing those who don't agree. As I've said from the beginning, there are arguments on both sides. On balance, I don't have enough arguments for cowardice to tip the scales. Mostly, I just don't have enough information to make that call. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt with me when it comes to defamation, even Osama. I can find enough ugly labels for him that are much more clearly apt. I don't need to resort to iffy ones. I don't know why some care so much about this one. In order to retreat you have to first put up a fight. Did you see Osama fighting anywhere? It is my understanding that he fought against the Russians. He would not have the following he has had he not been an accomplished fighter, one would think. I'm assuming that he collected his scalps on the battlefield long ago. He's not a young man now. If he really needs dialysis, he could hardly be expected to be on the front lines. His value is in his leadership, funding, and strategic planning, I would assume, not as cannon fodder. Of course, that's mostly inference on my part, but a reasonable one, I think. However assuming the guy wasn't 6'4" or whatever he is and he donned a burga in an effort to escape, I would consider that a cowardly act. It would be yet another situation where he put his well being and safety over others. Inserting himself into a group of fleeing refugee women exposing them to potential deadly crossfire should he be detected. This is a perfect example of my point about differentiation. You argue that retreating under a burqa is cowardly because it puts at risk the party of women who are his traveling companions. I'm differentiating between putting those women at risk, which is definitely cowardly, from the simple wearing of a burqa. What is cowardly is the scenario you developed to surround him in his burqa, which you then attribute to the wearing of the burqa, making it a symbol. If he escaped under a burqa with a bunch of soldiers rather than women, well, I don't see anything cowardly in that. What is cowardly is putting the women at risk so he can escape. This whole discussion has been about the aptness of applying the descriptor, cowardly, to Osama. It's a technical point. And, btw...you're arguing bin Laden is NOT a coward is no more courageous than my arguing that the hijackers WERE brave. Concur. Both are good examples of courage. Perhaps we should suggest Webster use them. <g> BTW, I did notice the absence of black and white thinking in your labeling the hijackers as brave. Karen