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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: axial who wrote (11470)	11/24/2001 10:42:26 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Ah, i'd seen no indication of your location of residence, and if it is true that you are in BC then i find it even more interesting that you would gloss over [or condone?] what a US federal department is right now doing to us ... nice try on the twistings here, i'll address a couple at random - 'I resent your attempt to speak about Americans as if they are some kind of monsters' How can this be when by virtue of being a native/resident of two areas of the Américas i am myself an 'american'? ... what you mean is 'US nationals' of course, and you'd like to stretch my pointing out of specific and demonstrably monstrous actions of those who control that nation into calling each and every one of their subjects a monster ... well that is just plain silly - it is true that on Thread Morons i nominated as morons all US taxpayers who permitted their funds to be used in such a manner, however in an upmarket dictionary you'll find 'monster' and 'moron' separated by a healthy number of entries ... as for the judgment you've built around your fiction, if you don't care that your supposed neighbours are being bankrupted by the lobby in control of the 'Commerce' department, and clearly don't care about US assistance to the Pinochet regime's murders of chilenos for the sin of expressing their political views, nor about millions of indochinese killed in a demented attempt to stifle their struggle toward independence, then sorry but i don't much care what you resent. 'Since you are so determined to damn America, and America alone' .. [your bolding] I try to damn only one party per post, better focussed that way ... tv generation, sound bites, you know ... plus each post tends to address one point, so there's a balance you see - one point, one party damned ... check others of my posts and you'll find other parties damned ... better check your facts here, Citizen Kayne ..... with respect to the 'Commerce' department assault on BC forestry, i do indeed blame the USA [which is what you meant by your term 'America', right? ... just guessing, it's so confusing the incorrect use of that term ... btw, both the US and BC occupy portions of one of the Americas] .... and quite rightly - how can it possibly be justified that lobbyist goons like this bunch in DC should stand between hard-working producers and their honest customers? ... huh? ... feel free to try But tell us what you think, Jim - Is it your position that the faeces of those in control of the US and every single one of its departments and agencies comes out invariably in pretty little plastic bags and smells nice? ... Ever see a military-industrial complex you didn't like? ... Are you so vitally concerned with being seen as with-'em that you always feel the need to stifle opinion that deviates in the slightest from their party line? ... or is today an exception for you? city.pg.bc.ca

To: axial who wrote (11470)	11/24/2001 10:44:15 PM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

what alternative broad international policy would you suggest, that offered a maximal chance of success, at a minimal cost in American lives?" Um, everyone gets nekkid and smokes good weed? -Kev@asixtiesflashbackandgroov.ing j/k

To: axial who wrote (11470)	11/25/2001 12:17:38 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

Nice post Jim... Dovetails pretty closely with my own view (and much better articulated.. :0) No, the US is not perfect. And there is often justifiable rational for criticizing the decisions of those currently in power.. But there exists a segment of society that will proclaim that American foreign policy is the root of all evil in the world. That it has been OUR policy that has prevented the rest of the world from properly developing and that it's due to our "meddling" that so many people live in poverty. And I'm just not willing to buy that. I've spent time in Central America and personally had to deal with corrupt government officials. I've seen small villages where the US provided $100,000 in financial assistance to build a water "purification" and distribution system, but only $5,000 of it got spent on the actual equipment. They built a pumping station and pumped river water through a couple of layers of charcoal and sand for filtration, and then directed it to a community cistern through some small PVC piping (encrusted with 1/4" of slime as we discovered when some engineers, digging a trench, broke the town's water line). It's just incredible to see the amount of theft and corruption in these small countries. The above was only one instance of the corruption I saw. Many of these nation, such as was reported here regarding Indonesia, take what the industrialized nations give them and skim off some nifty profits for themselves, which they then deposit in some western bank, or the Cayman Islands. And then those US critics have the nerve to come out here and claim that it's the fault of the US that these nation are "exploited". As far as I'm concerned, the one's being exploited are those providing assistance and investment capital to these developing nations, only to see their investments nationalized or extorted into unprofitability (Russia is a prime example) by both organized criminal elements and/or corrupt officials. Yet, we're expected to forgive their debts and ignore the outright theft that has occurred. And in the end, the ones who truly suffer are the average person just trying to scrape out a daily living in order to feed their families. I have a pretty hardline view about what US responsibilities are in the world. I don't believe we have any obligation to provide hand-outs to a bunch of nations governed by corrupt politicians and dictators. That said, from time to time, we may find it in our interest to do so, if it protects US interests in those nations. And if protecting US interests leads to some benefit to the citizens of those nations, then all the better. And if we can somehow empower those societies to create the cultural and political infrastructure to create a government that is accountable to the people as a whole, and not the few, then even better. But the bottom line is that the people of every nation have to eventually decide for themselves when they've had enough of being ruled, and when they are ready to create the political systems and legal frameworks that permit that everyone will follow. And when we throw into the mix, adventurist marxism which, by its very nature, cannot peacefully co-exist with capitalism, totalitarian systems are created which eradicate all ability of the individual to challenge the government, or seek it's moderation and represenation of the common people. You just can't receive something for nothing. And when US assistance is provided, we must ensure, to the greatest level possible, that we require institutional changes in those societies that create respect for, and equal opportunity to obtain, property rights and investor assets, both domestic and foreign. And right now we're facing increasing pressure to forgive foreign debt obligations, without any real promise of institutional changes. And the end result might actually be revolutions against the standing governments. But it is at that time, the US and other western nations can step in and ensure that the new government creates the institutions that enhance economic and political development, with a government accountable to the population being governed. But enough of my ranting..... :0) Hawk