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Strategies & Market Trends : Booms, Busts, and Recoveries -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Stock Farmer who wrote (12228)12/28/2001 11:50:01 PM
From: jim black  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
Alas, John, as a lurker most of the time, feeling guilty occasionally at taking advantage of the superb
dialogues on this thread, your hint of true optimism, if I indeed do not misinterpret, is in itself alarming enough to elicit a response, admittedly not nearly as well as informed as many here.
One of the dollarscholars on Bubblevision today actually articulated aloud his concern for a real estate bubble!
I live in the sticks now, far from the madding crowd, raising expensive war horses I don't care if no on buys, but there are in my view several many alarming things going on. As you rightly point out Enron and Argentina HAVE
happened BUT no one seems (at least Joe-6-Pack) to have noticed. Latin America collectively owes USA ~$500
billion, and things are not well there. Inlaws in the other room are watching a football game in Qualcomm stadium (sorry Maurice) and it appears half empty and it is a "bowl game", fans having to come (by air? from Ausitn TX and Seattle WA)...1000 miles away, but an empty stadium??? Alarm bells ring for me. Sixty-five percent of people doing refinances increased!! the amount of their debt in doing so and still people are spending on your street as if no one ever heard of having to pay the piper, is that not the case? Japan is going broke and who is going to keep lending us money to finance our deficit. Our carriers cannot protect our cities in the heartland and our "Homeland Defense Secretary" is an impotent joke who should have kept his job as a governor. We are headed for major deficit spending, etc,. In short I do not see this market behavior as climbing a wall of worry. I see it as crawling
out onto a fragile limb. I think I fit best if put in a catagory, in the camp of Jay, who sees this as exceedingly dangerous and unpredictable territory none of us in this country have ever lived through before, or even
read about in history books. With short term T-bills, a little money in GNMA funds at 7%, quite a bit of cash and a healthy bit of reserves in dividend paying gold stocks I consider myself conservative and yes...scared...and I am an old fart who has seen the 60's the 70's the 90's and read a lot of financial history. And this does not look even vaguely familiar. Good luck in your Weltbild...it is brighter than mine.
Jim Black
could the nutcase muslim with unstable shoes have been noticed?? EVERY single one of the families of friends
we left in Seattle have had their retiremant accounts decimated (poor term, only one in ten, not nearly bad enough a description) because of faith in the likes of MSFT, ORCL, QCOM, DOT***, even AT&T, Winstar, CSCO, etc., etc., etc., and many of them can never make it back...and still there is no realistic alarm on the part of most, rather
a quiet desperation in realizing many of them can never retire. The war is real and most Americans do not know it or recognize its costs.



To: Stock Farmer who wrote (12228)12/29/2001 2:40:54 AM
From: TobagoJack  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
Hi John, by generally accepted observation, Maurice's comments, and my own personal experience, the Japanese also sense no urgency, possible dire consequences, or, for that matter, recession, much less depression, and yet ...

Message 16835414

… and …

Message 16837997

I believe in 'more or less' efficient market for most of the time, small mis-pricing for some of the time, and outrageous valuation once in half a lifetime, for each asset class. I look at fundamentals, peek at technical indicators, and sense the psychology, always, and occasionally I go with the crowd, sometimes against the crowd, and much of the time stay well diversified, or simpler still, sit on my hands, away from the crowd.

I now will put on paper my thoughts in the most succinct fashion I know how:

(a) The indicated nominal risk-free rate is zerodotnaught percent (5% real) in the second largest economy in the world, accounting for 40% of global savings;

(b) The indicated nominal risk-free rate is 5% in the largest economy (2% real), which is also the largest debtor;

(c) If the globally indicated risk-free rate is between nominal zero and very low single real digits, how much should equity risk return in the form of dividends and capital gains? Double the risk free rate, or 0 to 4%?

(d) For that 4+% possible real gain, what is the downside by traditional valuation measures? Negative 50% real and nominal?

(e) What is the cost of investing in nothing? Well, 0-2%.

Why should anyone bother playing the mug’s game at turkey’s odds?

Surely the drama, fireworks, and the killing of a life time is worth waiting for … picking off the bullish species of the investing electorates as they scramble out of the soon to be burning houses. Rifles ready, scopes aligned, take a deep breadth, and wait. It is so very simple.

The anecdotes about the monster homes you described only serves to convince me that there is a suicidal valuation discrepancy and self-destructive cognitive dissonance that had been set, ticking to the inevitable kaboom, and if not, all of history was for naught, because all past financial crisis could have been prevented or ameliorated by simply encouraging J6P and W3C to borrow and consume, to keep up the confidence measures, and compartmentalize the enveloping gloom. If so, why ever bother with factories and farms, when one can just print money, crank up the banking mechanism, and build consumption oriented real estate.

Come to think about it, that is exactly the script Japan is on:0)

Recovery depends, always, on three events: uptick of consumption, increased construction, rising capital investments. Well, consumption and construction are at highs already and can not likely rise further if in projects that are productive. Capex recovery requires profit justification, and yet, there is only declining and disappearing profit. The simple replacing of IT boxes does not a recovery make, and neither does retiring a 20 months old SUV.

Where will the impetus for recovery come from, and even if the magic of low rates does produce a phoney recovery, how strong can it possibly be?

The script is Japan.

Chugs, Jay



To: Stock Farmer who wrote (12228)12/29/2001 3:51:34 AM
From: smolejv@gmx.net  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
>>My new neighbor informs me that the fifteen minutes he spent driving a roaring steel-tracked monster through crunching wreckage took 25 years off his life! <<

I could laugh together with the rest of the crowd, given my Canadian experience with 2x4s and tack pistols as the basic building utensils of North America. However... Is this not asset destruction at its best - I am easy to get convinced of the opposite, but I'm not always a rational animal, in spite of trying.

And, wth what does that all have to do with Enron and Argentina?... Can't put down my train of thought, but at the end of this tunnel I am seeing J6P and strong dollar, riding together the yellow monster (Kommatsu I assume;)

My apocalyptic rant for today.

dj



To: Stock Farmer who wrote (12228)12/29/2001 6:00:14 PM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 74559
 
Let's see if I can find enough contradictions in your post to perhaps convince you that the devastation that seems to be coming may be nearer than you think:

You accurately perceive this:

Sure, folks are getting laid off right, left and center

But this is not going to last much longer if unemployment keeps increasing:

most of us are awash in cash flow.

Not the unemployed.

We've had two of the largest financial crumblings take place back-to-back (Argentina and Enron) and there are no panics

Did you see elmatador's post on Nortel and Lucent? Bears reading again. Merger or bankruptcy on the way? Would definitely cause a problem domestically. Japanese problems are serious and not going away. No panic in Japan, simply silent suffering.

Of course, the 8,200 square foot house across the street from me is still for sale.

Yup, and it's going to be for sale for a long time. The end of tasteless McMansions was predictable. No more bubble money to finance them, might as well bulldoze the ugly sucker. Some bank is going to take the hit.

and purchased gifts in seven different top-end stores in just under 27 minutes. Which might have been faster except that in two instances the sales clerks seemed to understand, appreciate and even enjoy the fine art of haggling. Or perhaps they were just bored and enjoyed my company. And while this may appear on the surface to be proof of bad news for the doomers and gloomers, I can assure you that it was very good news for me. I then savored several hours of unexpected vacancy in my agenda sipping outrageously overpriced coffee. One of those that I put on my visa card, and where the $0.27 in transaction fees thus generated still didn't dent the obscene margins.

The only obscene margins were in the overpriced coffee you charged on your VISA card. Your other gifts, I daresay, were heavily discounted even though purchased at high end stores. The discounts are even deeper now. While this is good in the short term for a Holiday buyer, it is devastating to the retailer who depends on decent earnings to keep afloat. The charming sales clerks you chatted up are unlikely to have jobs in February.

Wal-Mart was the only retailer that did well this year--not a good sign. No more chi-chi 25 year olive oils or pashmina wraps being sold. The consumer who bails out the economy is being a Scrooge. Why shouldn't he be? He's looking at losing his job, his portfolio has been smashed, and things are simply bleak. He's taken his shopping to Wal-Mart where he can really save a buck. I tell you, it's not a good sign.

You appear to be in the throes of Holiday-induced good will and optimism, which is nice. The Holidays are indeed a welcome respite from the harshness. But wait 'til February. If the interest rate cuts don't give the economy some traction by then, we are looking at another two years of pain. Our economy will be compared to Japan's. Uncle Al will be forced to flood us with cash, and inflation will inexorably follow. Budget surpluses will be a thing of the past and W will have no choice but to begin to consider a tax hike--gotta pay for all those expensive bombs delivered half-way across the world somehow, you know.

And another point: I truly hope it doesn't happen, but we cannot ignore the possibility of further economic chaos caused by another terrorist incident. One of those and all bets are off.



To: Stock Farmer who wrote (12228)12/30/2001 11:39:45 PM
From: pezz  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
<<It looks like it might be a lot more fun to frolic with Pezz and Maurice and MeDroogies for a while.>>

Come on in the water's fine...I've almost doubled my money since the 9/11 bottom....Believe me that's spelled "fun" ...