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To: sun-tzu who wrote (141803)	1/5/2002 8:14:12 AM
From: robnhood	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 436258

<< you can't use ANY data from mm's as it is completely unreliable and corrupt. mm's will flash B/A's, use ECN's to hide their intentions, show 100 share B/A's when they really have size in their pockets, etc. >> So true--- Where I work , our US connection has just decided to charge us $250 a month to see depth of market. I for one am opting out for I find the shown depth to be meaningless. Trading against size, eg; topping big bids or undercutting big offerings will not pay in the long run anyway. Stocks very often move into size.

To: sun-tzu who wrote (141803)	1/5/2002 10:50:02 AM
From: ahhaha	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 436258

that's total BS. what is Gopikrishnan's record as a trader? I don't know. Probably, not much. But I confirm his conjecture and I have more experience at trading than anyone alive. It isn't the experience here which provides the validity of the claim. It's measurement of data that does. small trades in the context of major market moves have absolutely ZERO effect. It is small trades that enable a market move. Without them the supply/demand away which provides contiguity, wouldn't be available and the move would abort. That means, for example, that without sellers above, price can't advance. as far as relating market movement to physics, that also is a fallacious comparison. Why make statements like this? Now you know why MMs who turn into traders mostly fail, and do so just as the physics or math predicts. Traders don't know why they were successful as MMs. They don't know the machinery because they only know it from doing it. Success inside is due to the positive expectation of the a priori structure of markets. Going outside inverts that into a priori negative expectation of return. there are way too many outside interventions in the capital markets to make that analogy. If that were the case, then Black - Scholes or Merton models couldn't be applied to options. Before those models were created option pricing by the random character of the market was pretty good, but since their creation, it is better. When they were first introduced there was a great deal of irrational prejudice from floor traders against them. Those traders are all gone, but the models are now heavily used. you can't use ANY data from mm's as it is completely unreliable and corrupt. Are we on the same page? You are only exposing your own irrational prejudices which you have concocted over the years in order to incorrectly explain what you have observed. This is why all the above is applicable. mm's will flash B/A's, The mind of man can invent endless myths. That's why we still struggle in a 19th century economic mentality. As hard as I try to interpret "flash B/As", I only see harvest moons. use ECN's to hide their intentions, An MM has no intention which needs to be hidden. That may not be so true in an issue that trades 50 per day. In that case the MM must intend to ignore the public's attempts to deceive. What you blame on MMs is exclusively caused by your fellow traders, that is, if any of what you observe is connected to anything actually occurring. show 100 share B/A's when they really have size in their pockets, The rules prevent the MM from bidding or asking in front of the best public bid or ask. No one violates the rules. Why should they? It isn't in their interest to do so. None of this is physically possible if we are talking about 99% of the NAZ stocks. We have to go to the pinks to find enough illiquidity before we find the shenanigans you claim. The shenanigans are all caused by the public trying to cheat. ALL. small lots, i.e. J6P, can not move markets. period, end of story. If you analyzed what 100 share orders do, you'd nearly have the crystal ball all seek.