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To: E. Charters who wrote (80515)1/5/2002 8:12:18 PM
From: Eclectus  Respond to of 116758
 
EC

Where do you get your history? Please provide references. I would like to see it in writing.

Don't confuse my interest with criticism.

Eclectus

Got God?
Got Gold?



To: E. Charters who wrote (80515)1/5/2002 8:20:57 PM
From: Richnorth  Respond to of 116758
 
The defeat of the Moslems at the major sea battle at Lepanto (at the mouth of Gulf of Patras, Greece) on October 7th 1571 marked the beginning of the ascendancy of the West over the Muslim world. I first mentioned this historical fact in my post #78362.

Before that battle, neither the Christians nor the Moslems had full control, one over the other.

By the way, the Hungarians had to take more than a hundred years to expel the Turks out of Hungary. Moslem scholars made some contribution during the early part of the Renaissance: they brought with them some ancient lore and learning thought to have been lost forever since the Great Fire of Alexandria in 391 A.D.

P.S. Here's a brief account of the Battle of Lepanto:-

The fleet of the Holy League commanded by John of Austria (d. 1578) opposed the Turkish fleet under Uluc Ali Pasha. The allied fleets (about 200 galleys, not counting smaller ships) consisted mainly of Spanish, Venetian and papal ships and of vessels sent by a number of Italian states. It carried approximately 30,000 fighting men and was about evenly matched with the Turkish fleet. The battle ended with the virtual destruction of the Turkish navy (except 40 galleys, with which Uluc Ali escaped). Approximately 15,000 Turks were slain or captured, some 10,000 Christian galley slaves were liberated and much booty was taken. The victors, however, lost over 7,000 men. Among the allied wounded was Cervantes (of Don Quixote fame) who lost the use of his left arm. The battle ended the myth of Turkish naval invincibility.



To: E. Charters who wrote (80515)1/5/2002 10:21:53 PM
From: marcos  Respond to of 116758
 
Much more complex than that on the iberian peninsula - the phoenicians founded Cádiz before 1000 a.c., to trade with the brits of the day, almost certainly, among others, they mined mercury and traded for the tin of Cornwall ... the area was the 'Tarshish' of the bible, name deriving from inhabitants previous to that time, can't remember what they called themselves ... the name Andalucía derives from the name of the vandals, who migrated there following the sack of Rome, settled for a while and then mostly moved on to the african coast, while the visigoths largely replaced them ... the actual name Andalucía was given by the arabs, it is a corruption of al'Andalus [sp?], they knew it to be the former home of their vandal enemies ... anyway, point being that there is a lot of teutonic blood in the area, it goes way back ... i know a family who appear, and are, extremely maya, yet some of them exhibit strong caucasian traits, one has blue eyes even, his grandfather was 'an español', very hispanic name and provenance, yet he was over two metres tall, had blond hair and blue eyes .... you mention the jews who assimilated, these are called conversos, the man who built the boats for Cortés to use in taking Tenochtitlán, he was one, Hernando something, he was executed for reputedly practising jewish rites surreptitiously, more likely falsely accused so somebody could steal his stuff, he is one of the more famous victims of the inquisition in the Américas .... there has been a great deal of immigration through what is now Spain, perhaps more of a crossroads, a crucible, of cultures than have been the Balkans ... so for this reason the people take a merely-amused view of being called 'spics', as they are long and fully aware of the existence of herds of confused and wandering tête-carrées



To: E. Charters who wrote (80515)1/6/2002 1:42:49 AM
From: c.hinton  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116758
 
1683,last time the ottomans laid seige to Vienna.



To: E. Charters who wrote (80515)1/6/2002 10:36:12 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 116758
 
What history was Eclectus concerned about? I guess it was less the mistake on dates and omission of the Germanic influence in Spain, than the theory on Jewish origins. Perhaps he does not like the Jews being placed as a Steppe tribe of not most ancient ME descent. What I mean is that they were not originally Arabic or other darker skinned Semitic speaking ME tribe. It seems they came into Southern Babylon about 5800 BC from the Black Sea area after the earthquake at the Dardanelles and change in sea level known as the flood in the Gilgamesh literature. This makes them one of the earliest civilizations in the area that is written about. If the Sumerians, or Hungarian predecessors, notably a non semitic speaking tribe, were earlier, so be it. I doubt that is true. Origin of the Jews is tenuous, but they could be from their monotheistic religion, pictographic early alphabet, and non Arabic traits, an oriental-origin caucasoid tribe. This is supported by their very light hair and skin colour, and their rejection, since Phineas, of intermarriage with other races of the area. Some research should be done with association with the Tocharians in the region of China. Most of this info comes from late archaeology and geological research in the past 30 years, much of which has been suppressed, and is not assimilated into modern histories yet. It is now supported by some prominent Jewish historians and researcher. Many of the areas are ME trouble spots and the governments suppress archaeology by western interests. They do things like eradicate Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. China, fearing independence movements of its people also suppresses the Turko-Ugric theories or those of a Caucasoid people in China and won't allow further research and digs in northern China. these digs have turned up European-clothed Caucasoid mummies whose origins may go back to much more than 4000 BC. But we know the Turks, early Anatolians, and Iranians are oriental in origin, and are not closely related to the Arabics near the present areas in which they live. Also, some of the info comes from German archaeology and anthropology done pre-WWII. Some of this work was wrongly discredited because the work was commissioned by the Socialist regime of pre-war Germany and was meant to support Aryan migration theories. In that these theories are partially supported by the Golden Bough, (the mythological text), and could be in part true if not racially conirmed, this research has never been refuted. Perhaps four or more, so-called Aryan migrations west from China and the Steppes north of there, culiminating in a late Indo European invasion. Possible Aryan advances started with Caucasoid Indo-Europeans, were mixed in intervals with other races and ended with Indo Europeans.

It must be emphasized that Aryan in archeaological terms or ethnological terms has no racial meaning per se. It more properly refers to warlike tribes from the east. They probably had Indo European roots and incorporated, Armenian, Phrygian, Tocharian, Indian, Iranian, Hungarian-Sumerian and other ancient peoples. There could have been proto-Germanic people in the mix, as the Germanic language is older than Sanskrit in its oldest form and has common roots with Indo-Iranian. The real gripping question is what race lived in Europe prior to 7,000 BC? Were the 6,000 BC natives recent migrants? I tend to think they were, and moved into Europe as it warmed after the last Ice Age.

EC<:-}