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To: Maurice Winn who wrote (12830)	1/6/2002 12:08:34 AM
From: Stock Farmer	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

What is this? >>gold seems to me to have too many crowds of people hanging around it hoping to get rich<< And QCOM doesn't? Have you checked out this thread recently? Subject 8007 >>I'm automatically nervous about crowds of people hanging around something in the hopes of getting rich quick.<< You and me both. And here, Subject 25851 is based on a best-seller get-rich-quick strategy. A few of the good folks there are presenting their portfolio distributions, like here: Message 16865212 And Q! figures prominently. >>Cybercurrencies based on share values have so much going for them that I don't see how anything else can compete<< Except anything that is an equivalent to a cybercurrency would automatically have all of these same so-muches going for them too. Which then leaves a herd of uncompetitive mutual substitutes? Is this a repackaging of the argument that one fiat currency is superior to another? Stripped of all fancy packaging, stocks are merely alternative fiat currencies, backed by the full faith of management. Which the good folks at Enron illustrate is not necessarily a basket in which all eggs should be placed. Whether it's Argentina or Japan or Qualcomm or ... same difference. The argument that one is better than the other seems to rest solely on the fact that one is not the USD while the other one is. Which is somewhat circular at the core. Of course there is something to be said about real assets. For example, strip away gold and all PGM and the value of CDMA decays in a puff of corroded metal. Those little ASICs in which electrons dance to put the cyber in your currency? Sorry. Every day some number of kilograms of gold are sputtered onto silicon wafers and bonded onto die-pads and electro-plated onto contacts and dispersed into the hands of consumers, thence jettisoned with the kitty litter some years later. Which kilograms must be purchased on the open market, and possibly from me. So just as we don't heat with coal or burn bunker crude or grind our own wheat, nothing wrong with holding onto a piece of the action that makes the cyber-world run, eh Maurice? Now, if you were arguing about rhodium or some of the more exotic (cosmetic) metals, well, I'd agree with you. But you are talking about an engineering metal, which has arguably as much value as a CDMA ASIC today, and probably moreso a decade from now when Q's strangle hold CDMA patents expire. Which leads us to this comment: >>No, I mean what can be, not what is now. << Sure. Anything's possible in the future. Sadly however, of the infinite possible alternative futures we can look forward to, we have the luxury of experiencing only one in this lifetime. And while some may be brighter than others, I suggest planning for the most probable is preferable as a practical matter. But it is always fun to daydream. John

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (12830)	1/11/2002 9:14:56 PM
From: TobagoJack	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Hello Maurice, I will start this post by first agreeing with CB … Message 16868149 <<Buying a share in a gold mine is an investment. Buying a gold coin is a hedge>> … then by agreeing with your … <<gold, like old cars, paintings, land, other metals and non-perishable stuff such as swamp wood, coal, fossils and any amount of other real, 3D objects, is a speculative store of value>>. I then state, again, I am not a gold bug, as I have in the past, repeatedly … Message 16834100 … and add the thought that gold, as opposed to Greenskaput, may be the true magic, an excellent piece of drama beautifully choreographed. Follow along with me, for a moment, putting aside your natural and understandable bias, as I did, as AC Flyer is probably not willing to, and see what I mean, and then ask yourself, is it worth an allocation? I will attribute fully to the sources of my fears, in case the Big Brother with ID EYE scanner is interested: (a) You remember this then original idea I had discussed with you on the matter of gold consolidation, through LTCM and Enron-enabled financial engineering, given its now apparent accomplish-ability and certain profitability, intuitively obvious to the most casual of passing observers, if they would just look for a moment Message 16025306 (b) You remember your awakening … Message 16025323 (c) This very successful investor figures that the USD may fall, and sharply, when it does; otherwise the USD will fall, when it does, and sharply again … pimco.com … expanded on and adding to these old ideas, noted long ago, and now a few more years in the buildup to the prophesied deluge (warning: gold bug nonsense in AC Flyer’s frame of reference) … tocqueville.com (d) Problem we need to figure out is simple, namely, fall against what? Forget when, because no one should pretend to know. And if you said gold, you would be agreeing with your hero Greenskaput, as he noted here, when he was Greenspunkie (warning: bug crap, et cetera) … gold-eagle.com gold-eagle.com (e) But, as noted, possibly not against gold, in Lawrence Summers (former Treasury Secretary and current President of Harvard University) article, "Gibson’s Paradox and the Gold Standard”, described in some detail here (warning: oh, you know already) … gata.org (f) What, confused? And therefore I would think, gee, maybe, just possibly, an allocation would be appropriate and wise, in case this following may be the state of reality sufficient to pass the ‘Matrix’ (i.e. movie w/ Buddhist leanings) test, where everything seems to taste like chicken … tocqueville.com … without considering the more recent and spicier suspicions of government sponsored manipulation that, under normal times, I would have dismissed out of hand as bug crapola (I am also not a conspiracy subscriber, most of the time), had it not been for now indisputable Italian Euro convergence derivative trades, Argentine officialdom scamming private savings, and Enron-esque political cronyism … (g) Divulged here in short reportage style, posted by the benighted BF … Message 16894721 … and discussed here in scholarly but also somewhat detective thriller fashion … tocqueville.com You have to admit, the story makes a thriller, self-contained, internally consistent, consistently cohesive, without a lot of contradictions, other than the already mentioned Paradox. (h) Well, gad, the rules for effective counter-measures are rather easy to follow … tocqueville.com This is so simple an insurance methodology, just in case the crazies are sorry-ly right, before officialdom apologies and witch-hunts are necessary. Especially when NEM option and share trades are so profitable, at least more so when compared to a lot of other trades. Maurice, Ok, I admit that I am afraid. I mean what if THEY are right? Oops, forgot, I do not care, because I got Pt, plugged by President Bush in his call for fuel cells, and Au, unplugged by Greenskaput in his call for USD, and I am earning USD from NEM puts/calls:0) And, guess what, I even have zestier plays to checkout, as recommended by Dr. Jim Black … Message 16867766 … Oops, Jim, sorry, didn’t mean to drag you under the scope of THEY who has the ID EYE:0) In any case, gold will not rise because of baubles, dentistry, transistors, or Japanese digestive tract treatment. Gold will rise because of gathering mania, which we all understand so very well, without any intellectualization or rationalization … (a) The Japanese must go long on gold, short on Yen, and/or repatriate savings that earn no yield … nni.nikkei.co.jp “Friday, December 28, 2001 Gold Selling Briskly Ahead Of Limited Guarantee On Deposits” (b) The French need to prepare for the possibility of ‘Death of Euro’ … minesite.com “January 9, 2002 The French Are Switching Savings Into Precious Metals Rather Than Euros” (c) The Russians need to hedge their reliance on the USD and the NMD … therussianissues.com “Duma to Make an Attempt on Russians' Dollar Savings Duma advocates of gold savings are seemingly acting in the interests of those financial structures that wish to broaden the scope of their activities issued on 14.11.01” (d) The Chinese need to hedge their own government and tax authorities, given that they seem to have a good understanding of something they used to have and is having again … ex.ac.uk Chronology of money via links at bottom of page, starting at the earliest time period noted. And from these reports, the magic is still strong, after 60 years of brutal suppression of the ideas concerning private property, wealth, enterprise, money, and the common good … www1.chinadaily.com.cn “Huang Jinbao withdrew 100,000 yuan (US$12,048) from his bank account on November 28 last year to invest in gold after China's first gold exchange made its debut in Shanghai. …” www1.chinadaily.com.cn “… Lu also revealed that the central government has reformed the examination and approval of the registration system for running a gold shop, which suggests that individuals with adequate funds will be permitted to operate gold shops after the gold market is fully opened …” chinadaily.com.cn “… According to other countries' experience, a stock market, a futures exchange and a foreign exchange trading centre as well as a gold exchange are essential for a city to become a financial hub … … Experts indicate that the opening of the gold exchange will further improve the integrity of China's financial markets … … Gold futures and foreign traders will be introduced to the market as China further deregulates its gold market.” www1.chinadaily.com.cn “The much-heralded national gold exchange … landmark in China's … a precious metal once viewed as one of the world's hardest metals and strongest investment tools …” These communists, they have learnt much and applied plenty with childlike alacrity. So suspiciously capitalist-like. (e) Islamic bankers … do not even start on their nutsy ideas … millennium-money.com (f) The de-leveraging process has be initiated by the mining consolidators, willy-nilly, assuming that the market is free, and if not free, the explosion of short positions will do the de-leveraging in a kaboom second miningweekly.co.za “Gold sector consolidation bad news for bullion banks” In summary, gold is drama, characters cast from Chinese communist politicos, Russian schemers, aggressive consolidators, greedy global dealers, shadowy Central Bankers, Jihadic Islamic lenders, and whatnot. Pure drama. What, not possible? Or as unbelievable as these words grouped together (Bush Greenspan surplus Enron plunge Social Security disappearance) … which, perhaps not so incredibly, yields this from www.google.com google.com Do You see any picture hidden amongst the pixels you are so found of? Maybe an outline? Perhaps if you zoom in to fractal scale down, or maybe zoom out to fractal scale up, and then a recognizable outline emerges. Chugs, Jay P.S. Here, them commies are learning from the Indians, globalization style … so that they have more money to pay for your CDMAs ‘planet-ization’ fashion … nytimes.com “Chinese Race to Supplant India in Software January 5, 2002”

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (12830)	8/20/2002 6:42:37 AM
From: TobagoJack	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Good evening Maurice, <<gold, like old cars, paintings, land ... is a speculative store of value ... you can swap it for some coal ... CDMA ... oil is more like $1 than the current $20 a barrel OPEC wants to charge>> ... and can be used as ... (are you ready?) ... money ... argh, gush gush, wow and ah, and oh, BTW, oil is now closer to $30, which is further away from $1 ... emedia.com.my 20 August 2002 KL to use gold dinar in trade with Islamic nations by mid-2003 THE BLUE COLUMN By HAMISAH HAMID MALAYSIA will start using gold dinar in its trade with some Islamic countries by the middle of next year, says Special Economic Adviser to the Prime Minister Tan Sri Nor Mohamed Yakcop. The Government has started talks with a number of countries on the adoption of the medium on a bilateral payment arrangement (BPA) basis, he said. “The process has started... we’d like to promote (the use of gold dinar) and anchor it,” he said when asked for an update on the initiative. Nor Mohamed was speaking to reporters after opening an international conference on “Stable and Just Global Monetary System: Viability of The Islamic Dinar” in Kuala Lumpur yesterday. He did not identify the countries with which Malaysia has begun negotiations, but said response has been good. Morocco, Libya and Bahrain are reportedly among the West Asian countries to have expressed keen interest in using gold dinar in trade. Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad had last year proposed that gold dinar be adopted as a substitute currency for international trade as it is more stable and less prone to speculative activities. Dr Mahathir, who is also Finance Minister, suggested that gold dinar be initially used to settle bilateral trade payments, and its adoption widened progressively. Malaysia has to date signed BPAs with 24 countries, but the Government is ready to extend the use of gold dinar in trade with any other interested party. The mechanics were worked out by the Government early this year. In his keynote address, Nor Mohamed said the gold dinar will start with BPAs but will eventually cover multilateral payment arrangements (MPAs). In the early stages, the gold dinar will not exist in physical form and will be assigned a value in gold. “For example, if 1 gold dinar is equivalent to 1 ounce of gold, and the price of 1 ounce of gold is US$290 (US$1 = RM3.80), then the value of 1 gold dinar will be US$290 or equivalent in other currencies, based on prevailing exchange rates,” he said. The actual settlement of trade can be done through the transfer of equivalent amounts of gold. However, this will not involve physical transfer from one country to another, only of beneficial ownership in respective accounts. Using trade between Malay- sia and Saudi Arabia as an example, he said trade balances under their BPA will be settled every three months. Malaysian exporters will be paid in ringgit by Bank Negara Malaysia on the due date of exports based on the prevailing ringgit/dinar exchange rate. Similarly, importers will pay Bank Negara the ringgit equivalent of their imports. In Saudi Arabia, its central bank will do the same for the country’s exports and imports. By the end of the three-month cycle, Malaysia’s exports to Saudi Arabia total, say, 2 million gold dinar and Saudi Arabia’s total exports to Malaysia 1.8 million dinar. For the particular cycle, the Saudi central bank will therefore pay Bank Negara 200,000 gold dinar. Nor Mohamed said this can be done by the Saudi central bank transferring 200,000 ounces of gold in its custodian’s account with the Bank of England in London to Bank Negara’s account with the same bank. “The important point to note is that, under this mechanism, a relatively small amount of 200,000 gold dinar is able to support a total trade value of 3.8 million gold dinar. “In other words, we optimise on the use of foreign exchange,” he said. This way, countries that do not maintain large foreign exchange reserves can still participate significantly in international trade. On the use of dinar on MPA basis, Nor Mohamed said it works the same way as with BPA but it will be even more efficient as it involves many countries and not just two. The mechanism can be refined further, for example, whereby the credit or debit outstanding at the end of each quarter can be carried forward and final settlement is made only at the end of the year, thus further reducing payment flows. It is timely for Islamic countries that have spent the last two decades establishing domestic Islamic financial systems to move on to the next stage, which is the establishment of an international one, he said. The gold dinar, being a neutral currency, is also an ideal instrument to facilitate trade among Islamic countries, he added. The two-day conference is organised by the International Islamic University of Malaysia. ©New Straits Times (M) Berhad