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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (42591)	1/23/2002 5:07:58 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Yes, it was only a matter of time. It is quite possible that Winston Churchill, by steeling the resolve of the British public and appealing to his friend FDR (they were, in fact, remote cousins) for essential aid, saved civilization as we know it........

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (42591)	1/23/2002 6:13:17 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

That probably would have the been the war right there in 1940, Tim ... we lost before we started. Maybe, maybe not. The US might have tried harder to avoid getting in to war because it would look worse for us, we might have had a cold war with the axis for a long time, perhaps similar to the cold war with the Soviets, nuclear weapons pointed at each other, proxy wars, hostile rhetoric, competition for client states and such. Its also possible that it might have waked us up to the danger earlier and caused us to be more prepared for any Japanese attack. Of course even if we where more prepared we would have faced longer odds, but if Pearl Harbor wasn't such a suprise that would have given us additional battleships to face the Germans. Also we could produce more carriers then Germany and Japan combined (It would have taken Germany years to get any decent carier program going). The Bismark and Tirpitz could have faced the fate that the Yamato and Musashi faced (although the greater range, and more favorable conditions the German battleships would face might have helped them out). Perhaps the Germans get the former Royal Navy, unless it is scuttled) I think that part of it would have been sunk resisting the invasion, part of it would have been scuttled, and perhaps part of it would have fled to Canada or some other place. The germans would presumably capture a ship or two but not the navy. Even with air superority the German fleet would have had losses trying to protect and support the invasion force against the bigger British navy. I wonder how Stalin would have reacted. I think it would have been possible for the US to win even in these conditions because neither Germany or Japan would be ready to invade the US or destroy our industry. The Axis navies could hit US trade hard but we were less dependent on overseas trade then Japan or England, we could produce all of the food and feul and most other things that we would need to fight a war. It might be that facing such a difficult situation that the US would have came to some settlement and avoided war, but if we did go to war we would still have had a chance to win. However it would have taken longer and been more difficult. If we did go to war we would likely have still gotten nukes first, and that would have been important as the war dragged on past 1945. (But then one study determined that if the Soviet had invaded western Europe after we demobilized at the end of WWII, that they would probably have won despite our nuclear monopoly. Of course they would have paid a high price to take over a devistated shell of a continent.) Never have so many owed so much to so few Churchill could turn a phrase. And that one is pehaps true. Although a few other examples might challange it like Thermopolye, or Rome owing so much to Scipio Africanus who finally managed to defeat Hanibal. But then the populations where much lower then so the only way you get the "so many" is by imaging the effect on the history of western civilization if the Greeks fell to the Persians or Rome was so devistated by war that it didn't develop the way it eventually did. Tim