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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: TimF who wrote (142103)1/24/2002 3:02:36 PM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1579133
 
Tim, that's the most lame argument that the NRA uses. Because people are going to die any way, why bother to find the cure for cancer or any other disease for that matter.

You don't understand the argument. Since you can't stop the guns, criminals will get guns anyway, but if you keep them out of the hands of law abiding citizens then they will be less able to defend themselves and more people will die. Not only because of the criminals that are stopped by the presense of a gun but by those who are considering criminal acts that are detered by the possibility of facing a gun.


Tim, I understand the argument completely. Again, I gave you the analogy.......I am sorry you don't see how its analogous.

Sorry, I don't see this as being anything but paranoia. But you might want to think about why people see pro gun advocates as kooks.

If you think there is a good reason for people to think that a group is all dangerous kooks and you know that some people actually do think this way, then why would you think that the press and network news would not be biased against these groups?


You were the one who described this group as kooks. All I suggested to you is that if that's how you think the world perceives gun advocates, then you might consider why that is instead of worrying what the press thinks or doesn't think.

I want to discuss why its so easy for you to believe that media people don't give pro gun advocates a fair shake but then you seem to be very willing to accept the premise of the Town Hall article which is that minorities typically get a fair deal now when minorities say over and over that things are better but not good.

First, I need to amend this.......I reread the article last nite and the writer did not come out and specifically state that minorities had become too demanding and that he/she felt that they got a fair shake in today's world. He/she only hinted at those conclusions but didn't come right out and say it.

My view on "do minorities get a fair deal?" - Mostly they do. Legally they do

I pretty much agree with that.

and they face as much discrimination for them as against them.

They do? I don't agree.

Real quickly, when is the last time, you've heard of a white man being tied behind a car and forced to run behind that car til he dies? When's the last time an illegal immigrant from Poland was beaten severely? When was the last time a white man was raped with a police baton by several NYC police men? When's the last time a straight man was crucified in CO or WY, or anywhere in this country? How many times does a white man bounce off the corporate glass ceiling?

Do you really think that the fact that blacks can sit in the same restaurant as white people makes up for being forced to run behind a car until you die? That this is an example of "discimination as much for them as against them?"

If you think things have evened out for people of color or for women, I can not agree. Things are better but not equal....not yet.

Why do they think they don't get a fair deal? Well some of them do think they get a fair deal. Others don't think so because they are told that all of the time by people or groups like Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, and the Democratic Party. Also even if they mostly face fair treatment many of them do remember being discriminated against more then once and it probably leaves a memory that causes them to be more likely to see discrimination even when they are not being discriminated against. Furthermore the removal of just about all official discrimination

You honestly believe that all official discrimination has been removed? You can't really believe that. There are any number of ways to discriminate without breaking the 'official' rules.

and most of the unofficial discrimination does not mean that overnight or even over the span of a generation or two that the results are equalized. Exceptional people of every racial or ethnic group can rise to the top (look at Colin Powell for example, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Secretary of State, and he could have had a shot at president if he went for it), but most people are not exceptional and a larger percentage of minorities come from a poor single parent families, and this is a major factor in minorities (particularly blacks and hispanics, asians overall do ok) having less wealth on the average. They know they have less wealth on the average, they might think "we are just as good as everyone else so it most be discrimination that causes us to have less."

I agree with most of what you say here.

Another thing is that I am sure they face people who give them a fair deal but have some degree of prejudice in their hearts and minds. That prejudice can color words and actions, and minorities aren't a bunch of idiots they can pick up on it. If they feel it they are more likely to think the deal they are being offered is not fair. To the extent that such low level bigotry and occasional discrimination does exist I don't think the law is the best way to deal with it. Martin Luther King talked about "urgency of the moment", but he was fighting ubiquitous and legal/offical discrimination and prejudice. More subtle and unofficial discrimination seems to be fading away but if it does go it will take awhile and race conscious laws will only prolong it.

I think that we have come a ways. Unfortunately, we seem to have this phobia about anyone who is different.......look at how you all react to a liberal. <g> So I think it will be a while before things are anywhere close to equal.

Maybe because I have had some close friends who were Jewish or were people of color, or heard the innumerable complaints of women, but I have recognized for a long time that the official rhetoric and the reality can be very different. I have also been in uncomfortable situations in the past 5-6 years where I saw first hand the ongoing discrimination that goes on in this country...presumably in more tolerant areas like big cities.

I have also seen the inverse.......where two black guys killed a white guy because he intervened when the black guys attacked a white girl during a Mardis Gras party in downtown Seattle last year. The white girl had done nada to provoke the black guys. So because of the black guys' prejudice and hatred, a pretty decent white guy [from what I understand from news reports] is dead. The irony of all this is one of the black guys was a leader at his hi school. The whole thing is sickening; furthermore, I am sick of all the sh*t around this issue...and I wish we were further along in realizing M.L. King's dream.

ted