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To: marcos who wrote (14086)	1/28/2002 3:53:47 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 74559

Marcos, the modern adulation of barbaric tribal cultures from centuries ago is peculiar. I can see the modern urban jungle leads people to think that the red in tooth and claw, nasty, brutish and short lifestyles of all communities on earth before the 20th century, and during most of it, and even now [in Africa and here and there] must have been better than now. In many ways they were [if not actually sick, starving, dying or being attacked]. But overall, we like the modern ways, which is why they are almost universally pursued. The Aztecs didn't have much creativity. They lived seasonal lives of subsistence survival with regular population-reducing territorial conquest. Life when they died of old age was not different from life when they were born. They had energy and it was used for rural, agricultural subsistence lifestyles. The rulers had some goldsmiths I suppose. Life then was barbaric. There is no other word for it. Barbarism was almost universal around the world [at least in episodic form - not every day was miserable of course]. It's not that great now, but overall, it's a LOT better and especially in the OECD world. It's definitely progress to achieve a state of "Europeanness". That's why it's been copied from one end of the earth to the other. People tend not to copy bad stuff because it makes life worse instead of better. The huge difference between then and now is the 6 billion people being creative and the vast technological and scientific foundations available. One great mind inventing CDMA can share it with the other 6 billion. So, with 1 million great minds, there is a vast rate of progress possible. That's why the start and end of the 20th century were like two different worlds for those participating in modernity. The rate of progress possible now is amazing compared with the beginning of the 20th century when the world's population was quarter what it is now and the foundations were small and weak. Look here: sru.edu there we are, right on the end of the curve - it's an exciting ride. In the Aztec world, even if they had the same ratio of great minds [which I doubt] the social circumstances didn't enable them to do great things and even if they did something really good, it couldn't be shared across the world - everything travelled slowly, including ideas. The barbarian Aztecs, Incas etc in action...<Their pyramids, unlike the Egyptians, are not burial places, but ceremonial centers to worship the gods, and make feasts in their honor... in their special basketball courts, a game may last several days, and the winner is to be killed and offered to the god, pulling out his heart. Contrary of what has often been claimed, the Classic Maya practiced human sacrifice on an extensive scale; torture followed by decapitation was most common on the evidence of pictorial ceramics, but heart sacrifice has also been depicted on the monuments.> ...... More charming, creative and energetic customs of the day <The priests would offer sacrifices mainly of white llamas, and, after chewing coca leaves, summoned the spirits to speak, -"which they did"- by "ventriloquism". The "fire" provides spiritual contact. And before any ceremony, "divination" was, as with the Romans, the prerequisite of all action: Arrangement of coca leaves, taking coca leaves as a narcotic, studying the lungs of a sacrificed llama... Humans also were sacrificed: 200 children might be immolated when the Sapa Inca took power... defeats, famine, and pestilence all called for human blood... The "Chosen Women" were sworn to perpetual chastity... and after death, those who did good, "do not steal, do not lie, don't be lazy", would go to live eternally to the sun's warmth; those who did bad, would go eternally to the cold earth. > What was sophisticated about these superstitious barbarians? Mqurice

To: marcos who wrote (14086)	1/28/2002 4:22:27 AM
From: Snowshoe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

The Europeans got vastly higher benefits from the new world crops than from the gold. Potatoes and sunflowers were especially important to northern Europe and Russia, leading directly to a human population explosion. Long-staple cotton was an essential component of the industrial revolution. Maize, beans, peanuts and sweet potatoes are widely grown around the world. Other important and tasty new world crops include vanilla, pineapple, papaya, pumpkin, cranberry, avocado, passion fruit and cashews. Amaranth and quinoa, the highly nutritional mainstay seed crops of the Aztecs and Incas, are now being "rediscovered" by the rest of the world. But gold? The world has adopted the Native American attitude -- it's not really all that important. While nice for jewelry and certain industrial purposes, it's not central to our economy.