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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (17459)	1/28/2002 6:00:12 PM
From: 49thMIMOMander	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Molly is the great hope of the golden foot in the Bush mouth future, but she is getting old. Ilmarinen The United Chiquita and CIncinnati Banana is going where it should, after well paid dividends. quote.yahoo.com

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (17459)	1/28/2002 8:43:32 PM
From: JohnM	Respond to of 281500

Speaking of Molly Ivins, . . . Inimitable Molly. And much to the point. The arrogance will get you every time. The Greeks knew it; we shouldn't forget it. John

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (17459)	1/28/2002 10:32:20 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (5) \| Respond to of 281500

Having not been to Gitmo to see for myself, I am going to take it on trust that the photos of the detainees kneeling, wearing hoods, don't reflect their day to day existence. I hope they were taken for the shock value, in order to cause our enemies to think twice about messing with us. Because, if not, it's a really crappy way to treat people. And I think it's unkind, and unwise, to behave callously towards people who are going to come out the other end alive, and return to their former environments. This whole thing has taken on a grandiose aura, like Wagnerian Ragnarok - why feed people's egos, why feed people's collections of grievances and injustices? These are just murderous, psychopathic, mean little pissants - why make them into more than they are? Torturing them in some sick way enobles them in the eyes of their supporters. I am disgusted by the attitudes of a lot of people I bump into in passing on the Internet, but for the most part they're the kind of people I'd never have anything to do with voluntarily, anyway. But I voted for Bush and I voted for Cheney and I supported Ashcroft, and I expect the best of them. Unlike you, I have more faith in Dubya than in Molly Ivans, but I hope my faith is not misplaced on this. Bagels and Froot Loops, indeed. I don't let my kids eat Froot Loops, too much sugar, too many chemicals.

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (17459)	1/29/2002 6:03:16 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Senator Feinstein looks to be more in sympathy with the Bush and Cheney view than with Ivins: sfgate.com

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (17459)	1/29/2002 7:14:46 AM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Good to see you Raymond. In this case I think Molly is wrong: >>And there, it seems to me, is the nub of the problem - simple fairness, or the appearance of simple fairness. To at least be seen to respect other people's opinions is so much to our advantage and costs us so little that we're nuts not to do it.<<< She did not venture once into imagining what possible motive there could be for a seemingly bad PR move. Inspectors and diplomats have not found any clear violation of the Geneva Convention. Our struggle is not against nations, who signed on to international law. It is against free agents who've signed on to nothing, who justify attacks like the WTC ones, etc. The attackers are fanatics at the extreme, like Japanese kamikaze pilots. Reason is foreign to those so extreme. The purpose of the policies in Guantanamo appears to be intimidation. Wanna live your lives without privacy? Wondering what we have planned next? Keep wondering. Or attack us and find out firsthand. Go ahead. Much has been claimed about how the US has appeared weak to the Islamists. Conducting a devastatingly precise and effective war disputes that notion. Lining up former enemies as allies displays that few safe harbors remain for terrorists. A cavalier public attitude towards prisoner treatment and to common conventions (coupled, btw, with their humane treatment) certainly displays an arrogance as well as the power to resist its critics. Which is precisely the purpose. Strength, and a warning to others: as ye do unto us, so can we use ways to do you one better....you too can enjoy dangling in the sun. Feel lucky, punk? It won't alleviate their hate towards us. But they won't again attack us under any misimpression that we are weak. It's purpose appears to be to serve as a deterrent. Seen any suicide bombers stateside lately?