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To: russet who wrote (8742)2/12/2002 7:11:53 AM
From: Mark Bartlett  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 14101
 
russett,

I have no time now but will respond in the next few days.

BTW -- how long were the studies that got Celebrex and Vioxx approved?

MB



To: russet who wrote (8742)2/12/2002 11:38:20 AM
From: Salt'n'Peppa  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 14101
 
russett, you are being a little silly here.

{{{ the LD50 data indicates that if we drink two thirds of a beer bottle of DMSO, half of us would die,...if we drink the whole beer bottle of DMSO, only some big guys might survive. }}}
The same can be said of many things.

Take Scotch, for example.
Many people swear by their daily constitutional and live into their 90's, attributing this to that daily shot of whisky. I'm sure many people would OD if they swilled a beer bottle of Scotch!

Take aspirin.
One or two a day is often regarded as a tonic, especially for those with arterial problems.
I don't think anyone on the planet would survive downing half a beer bottle of aspirins.

People wash their hands with soap every day.
I wouldn't want to drink 2/3 off a beer bottle of the stuff.
This example may be a more fitting analogy to DMSO than the above, as I don't believe DMSO is intended to be taken orally, just like Palmolive!
Just what does the LD50 data say, for Palmolive?

Your argument on this point just doesn't hold water, I'm afraid.

Have a good day.
S&P



To: russet who wrote (8742)2/12/2002 9:47:50 PM
From: axial  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 14101
 
Russet, good post -

First, I want to say that I, too have wondered about the adoption rate, the renewal rate, the market penetration, especially as it relates to revenue ramp-up, and DMX's ability to fund further P2/P3 trials, particularly for WF10.

I'm not at all sure that the sensible questions you raise have a sensible answer: or at least, one that is accessible to us. That should change as more data become available.

Without disagreeing with you, I'd like to suggest that some of the difficulties with possible answers lie in the assumptions with which one starts, and the "semantics" of the statistics one derives.

That is, of the suggested $8 billion market, what percentage of those fall into categories you have defined: ie., cannot find the time or the place to apply a topical, prefer to take a pill, etc.

Unless we know the statistics on those whose usage patterns and predelictions preclude the use of Pennsaid, we have no meaningful starting point. I have been unable to find a statistic for those who answer "Yes" to the question, "Would you use, and continue to use, a topical that brought you relief from the pain of OA?"

The people I have known with OA have "better" and "worse" days. What percentage of these would be motivated to use Pennsaid on a "worse" day, but otherwise, not?

What happens to a drug that gains a place in the psychology of the people, even the less literate? Like cocaine, for example? Or marijuana? Or aspirin? Difficulty in usage, even the possibility of jail, certainly didn't preclude their acceptance, in the first two cases. The pervasive use of aspirin (even when contraindicated or ineffective) has become universal.

"Aha! You say - Pennsaid does not offer the "high" that cocaine and marijuana do! It does not "reinforce" usage." Perhaps, but what are the statistics on reinforcing usage by relieving pain?

Approaching the subject from the other end, the question of creating demand for a product, I'm sure you have seen the statistics that substantiate the ability of effective marketing to do so, whether you're talking Volkswagens, topicals, or Super Mario.

In the middle, of course, is the question of retaining customers, and subsequently growing market share. In this area, you and I share concerns: I have no answer, except that the question of what we are really measuring allows me (if not you) to question the validity of any assumptions made about the statistics.

But there's a counterbalance to this potential loss of market share (if it exists), and that is off-label use of the drug: in sports, in sports medicine, and perhaps in everyday household usage.

In balance, my estimate is no better than yours: I will simply wait and see. Whether, for you, that constitutes sufficient reason to continue your investment is another question.
_______________________________________________

On the matter of long-term use, and toxicity, I'm sure you have seen the use of DMSO by Dr. Jacobs in treating scleroderma. I will re-post some of it here, because these patients were not only ingesting DMSO, but simultaneously taking intravenous injections of DMSO, with topical applications of DMSO.

"DMSO Testimony, Janet's Story
by Janet Field

I was diagnosed with scleroderma in May of 1995. In June 1995, I had a seizure and was hospitalized. While I was in the hospital I went into kidney failure and was put on dialysis, which I continued until January 1996. Then my kidney function returned to 26%, so I didn't need to be dialyzed any longer.

In March 1996, I heard about Dr. Jacob and DMSO through a friend and also an article in the Willamette weekly. I decided to go and see Dr. Jacob and he prescribed 1 ‡ tsp. DMSO a day and an injection once a week. After I began this regimen I slowly began to feel more mobile. My face which was tight and drawn began to soften and each week I started to look like myself again. The left side of my jaw had pain (which no longer does) and I had a hard time opening my mouth. The dental hygienist noticed I had more flexibility (while cleaning my teeth) than I had had before using DMSO. My neck was also tight and stiff and it feels a lot better and the shiny skin has gone away. My knuckles and joints in my hands were swollen. Some of this swelling has subsided and my kidney function has also improved to 40%.

Another doctor said that there was nothing anyone could do for me and that I would continue to get worse. Without DMSO I believe I would not have improved. I hope with continued use of DMSO, I will get better and better.

Janet Field
*******************************

A Right to Live
Joyce Mueller
Eugene, OR

My name is Joyce Mueller. I am a wife, a mother of two children ages, 16 and 9. I am 40 years old and have a terminal illness called Scleroderma.

The reason I write today is in hopes that no one with this disease will ever have to go through what I did, mentally, physically, or financially. I've had this disease for 13 years now, a very cruel disease. There were times I didn't ever think the pain could get any worse, but it always surprised me, when I least expected it, showing me how powerful it is!! I asked God, Why me, often, but why anyone?

I have seen supposedly the best doctors in the U.S. I've been to the Mayo Clinic in Minneapolis, Sister Kennedy's, Seattle University, and also to Spokane's Deaconess Hospital. Not to mention, that I had exhausted all of the doctors and clinics in the state of Montana, where we lived at the time.

My heart and lungs were calcified, my esophagus had to be reopened three times, and I was having trouble with my stomach, bowels, and intestines. My hands and legs were so tight they didn't bend anymore. Hands so crippled up I couldn't bend my fingers well enough to button my clothes or fix a dinner; just holding a cup of coffee became a challenge. I slept maybe an hour or two out of twenty-four, and I soon learned all I had taken for granted was quickly being taken away. My kidneys and bowels were shutting down, and the doctors had given me three months to live, if I was lucky. They could give me more medication for the pain, but, I quote, "this is a terminal illness and you will die from it, there is nothing we can do for Scleroderma, so accept it."

Many sleepless nights and tears that never seemed to end. I knew I was dying, not able to see my children graduate from even elementary school, knowing I would never see who they married, or my grandchildren. The doctors had finally convinced me; they had raped me of any pride or hope that I had kept locked inside. Depressed and too tired to keep fighting this never ending battle, I kept thinking, why isn't there some drug that can make me well again; why don't I have a right to live?

That was three years ago. I'm trying to make a long story short here, so please bear with me. My husband went over to the neighbors to prune her trees for her. She had asked him what disease I had, (she had seen him have to help me walk even to the car). He said, "Scleroderma." She told him of a woman who had the same disease who lived a couple of blocks away, and she was seeing a doctor in Portland, Oregon, who had her in remission. This was something you never heard of, remission and Scleroderma all in one sentence.

I went to Portland Oregon, to see Dr. Stanley Jacob! He wasn't sure at first if he'd be able to help me or not, but I thought even if it could help the pain a little bit, it would be worth it. I knew I was dying, and this was my last hope.

He started with giving me IVs of DMSO every day for two weeks, plus gave me an oral to take and a topical solution to put all over my whole body. It was incredible!! Daily I noticed very small changes, but progress. The pain wasn't so severe, and gradually my hands and back and legs seemed to be a little more limber. When I got off the plane two weeks later, my husband and kids didn't recognize me. I could walk like a normal person again!! And excited beyond words, he had given me hope, something that I had not had for a very long time. Dr. Jacob gave me back my life.!! After that I couldn't find a doctor in Montana to give me IVs of DMSO.

Yes, you're right, we sold everything we had and moved to Oregon, leaving my husband's job of 13 years and all of our family and friends. It took about a year, a very slow progression, but an uphill climb. Three IVs a week, plus the oral and topical. But, for the last two years, I am happy to say I've been put into remission!!! Not only has it helped the pain, (I still have about 20% left, reminding me that I still have this disease), but my hands now look normal and my face and skin looks healthy once again.

The calcification in my hands, heart, esophagus, and lungs are gone. All of the CAT scans, and heart and lung tests are totally normal. The heart specialist told me if he hadn't read my chart, he wouldn't have believed I even had Scleroderma.

It took time to come off all the medications, about 9 months to a year. And that first year it took time to heal the intestines (the inside lining was tearing each time I had a bowel movement). But I am now only using DMSO, and doing great. I had years of damage done to my body; it took a long time to get this bad. And it is taking time to change the damage done; it hasn't happened over night, but it has happened!

I feel like I've been given another chance in life. I can now lead a normal life once again. I can now look forward to each day instead of dreading the pain that I would normally go through. My kids don't worry anymore while they're in school if they'll come home to me dead or alive. My husband doesn't worry anymore if I'll be around for the next anniversary. I watched him for years, feeling helpless, wanting so much to be able to change what this disease had done to me, to us. He had truly been a saint through it all.

I thank God, the DMSO, and Dr. Jacob for giving me back my life again, a fully productive life that I look forward to. I just hope by writing this, that it will help someone else to fight this disease. There is hope. This may not be a cure, but I believe at the present time it's the closest thing we'll find. I've learned a lot through the years. The things I took for granted once were taken away. I have learned to enjoy life to its fullest, and be thankful for all things. But, most of all, I have learned to never give up, no matter what the odds. All of us, have a right to live.....

Stay well and God bless,

Joyce Mueller
****************************

A DMSO Testimony

by Rob Rabinowitz
Holland, PA 18966

In 1988 I began to feel changes in my skin and joints. After going to three different Doctors, I was finally diagnosed with Scleroderma. In the year and a half to follow, I was on at least four different medications. Nothing seemed to work and the disease was pro-gressing rapidly. My skin was very tight and I had trouble walking and eating. I went from 170 pounds down to 139 pounds. At this rate I knew I was in trouble.

In January 1990, I heard about Dr. Stanley Jacob, MD who had a clinic in Portland Oregon. I lived in Pennsylvania and decided to fly out to Portland. Over the next two years I flew out to Portland and received treatments of DMSO intravenously. At first nothing happened so they began to give me double doses of DMSO. Finally, after about nine months (three treatments a week) I began to feel a change. My skin softened and my weight and stamina increased. My weight increased to 170 pounds again and I began to feel human again. I still have Scleroderma and still have relapses. However, since taking DMSO, I believe it allows me to function as close to normal as I can feel. DMSO is not a cure but DMSO helped to turn my condition around.


dmso.org



To: russet who wrote (8742)2/12/2002 10:14:03 PM
From: Mark Bartlett  Respond to of 14101
 
russett,

I am not sure I will get my ll response done tonight -- been a long day. However I will give it a try.

First re: the trial time for Celebrex for O/A. Would you believe 12 weeks..

<< I'm more concerned with other issues, primarily how fast we can expect consumers to adopt the product which will be determined by ease and convenience of use, portability and durability of the product, effectiveness, marketing, doctor adoption to prescribe and anything else that affects customer adoption and repeat use.>>

Fair enough and I have considered this. Lets look at each issue one at a time.

1) Ease and convenience of use.

No doubt that popping a pill is easier than rubbing on a lotion -- but that has not stopped million of people from using ointments/creams daily that require the same activity.
Granted in the case of Pennsaid, they will have to wash their hands fisrt (I suspect) but I am hopeful that when doctors educate the consumer about the benefits of this route vs oral, a little hand washing will not seem like a big deal. BTW -- most people should was their hands more anyway -- as I am sure you would agree.

2)Portability and durability of the product.

A 60 ml container of Pennsaid will be about the same size as a bottle of pills. In terms of durability, I am sure that you know that most medications have storage directions, particularly about putting them in hot cars. The shelf life for Pennsaid the last I was told, was about 2 years. That seems quite average to me.

3) Effectiveness

I have spoken personally to a number of people who have used the drug, including several doctors -- everyone has said the stuff works. In addition, the trials proved it works. Interestingly NSAIDS only work in 60-65% of people, so if Pennsaid is close to that, we will do OK.

4) Marketing

If we get US approval, I suspect that our partner will do a good job at this, assuming it is J&J.

5) Doctor adoption to prescribe

With DTC advertising that is allowed in the US, I am hoping that, to a degree, the Px will end up asking for it. And again there will an education curve here too for the docs - I hope the drug reps are well versed.

It does point out that a rat can tolerate it better than a monkey.

True -- but the LDL50 was 88gm/Kg of body weight when applied to skin. We both know that, that is one hell of a lot of DMSO.

<<The paper's discussion about DMSO in fruit is a little silly, considering they are talking parts per million,...so
in black leaf tea (the highest amount of DMSO) there is 16 grams per tonne of drink. I imagine it would take a
long time to steep and drink a tonne of tea and get 16 grams of DMSO in us>>

I think what I personally garner from this is that we as humans have been exposed to DMSO for likely thousands of years and as a result we have adapted to metabolizing it very nicely.

Interestingly, I suspect that one could drink an entire bottle of Pennsaid (60 ml is about 1 month's supply) and likely not feel much at all. I doubt the the same could not be said for one month's supply of Celebrex, Vioxx or most of the other NSAIDS.

DMSO WHMIS sheet

You might find this post interesting on SH:

stockhouse.ca

<<Also discussed in that article is the fact that exposure to light, and although not specifically discussed probably heat, causes quick degradation of DMSO,...a problem for storage and ease of use. Leaving this in the car, purse or pocket on a warm day could destroy its effectiveness. It also biodegrades qui>>

A month's supply last about 4 weeks. No assumimg that it would be delivered from production within 6 months (fair) it only has to stay "fresh" for 4 weeks, assuming it is used daily. Also, one has to be carefull about comparing pure DMSO to Pennsaid. I suspect they may have added some sort of stabilizers to the compounding to increase shelf life (just guessing, I realy do not know)

My answer to your question about what did I think the reasons for HC to delay approval were, was buried in
a post to Cal that day. I thought we were discussing amongst ourselves.


Unless is PMd, I assume it is free to be commented on by anyone -- sorry to butt in.

Shareholders are lobbying down in the States for this now. If passed we could discuss specifics a lot easier than we can now.

Agreed - I love to see this too.

Your assumption that everyone will understand
that Pennsaid is better for them, and only an idiot would not see the difference is clear to me,.


Actually, I think it is going to take some consumer education. But I believe that the biggest hurdle is going to be educating busy doctors. I have found with a lot of health educating I have done (>20 years), most people are willing to adopt healthy behaviours once educated, even if there is some inconvenience.

but what percentage of all analgesic pill poppers develop serious side effects to the pills,

A responsible doctor's first credo is -- first do no harm. Any doctor that has had to deal with a bad GI bleed due to oral NSAIDS will appreciate the safety profile of Pennsaid.
Also - doctors in general are fully aware of what NSAIDS can do to people; it is not just GI bleeds were are talking about. There are other side effects too.

<< but because the patient didn't want to take their shirt or pants off all the time to apply,>>

In my mind this just requires a little pre-planning. Most people using this stuff are likely going to be retired, so they will for the most part spend much of their time at home. But even if they were going out shopping for 3-4 hours - would you just not apply some before going out.

A high proportion of these people smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol to excess, and eat all the foods that are bad for them even after warning signs of diabetes, heart problems etc., etc. They won't listen to arguments of severe side effects, rotting guts, etc.

First - 75% of the population think enough of the ill effects of smoking, not to do so. So I have a hard time believing that we are talking about a "high proportion".

Also, older people today are much more aware of benefits of a healthy lifestyle and as they age and things start to wear out they become that more aware and more likley to act in their best interests to preserve what they have left.

Think about the decrease in growth of early adopters of Pennsaid in the early trials in North America a year or so back,... only 3400 users at the end of the trial.

At some point the trial has to end. These trials are expensive and can not go on forever. In addition, I believe these people paid for Pennsaid out of their own pockets. I may stand corrected on that, but I seem to recall that was the case.

As far as WF10,..

I think it is fair to say we share the same views here, including a possible benefit for arthritis.

Well, I lasted longer than I thought I would - take care and thanks for an intelligent dialogue.

MB

PS - please forgive the typos. I am too damned tired to go back and correct them!