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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/25/2002 4:09:08 PM
From: exdaytrader76  Respond to of 28931
 
we worship self and money

Yep. And technology, imo.



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/25/2002 5:28:15 PM
From: James Calladine  Respond to of 28931
 
is there any chance that there truly is a spiritual realm?

YES!

Here explained is the relationship between "the egoic
self" and Spirituality.

<<<THE HEART'S SHOUT (1996)
Part I: I Have Come To Reveal the Joy of Being
SECTION FOUR: The Truth About God
Chapter 21

God Is The Deep Of the world

from chapter seven of The Dawn Horse Testament Of Adi Da

(1) True Religion Does Not Begin With a belief About God. It Begins When You Truly (and Most Fundamentally) Understand (and Feel Beyond) The Contraction Of The Heart (or The self-Protective, self Defining, and self-limiting Recoil Of the body-mind From the Apparently Impersonal and Loveless forces Of conditional Nature).

(2) God Is Obvious To The Free (or selfless) Heart. Only The Heart (Free Of self-Contraction) Can "Locate" (or See) and Realize The Divine Person.

(3) The conditional (or self-Contracted) Heart Does Not Realize God In the present, and So the Heartless body and the Heartless mind Become Preoccupied With Seeking For self-Fulfillment, self-Release, and self-Consolation, Through every kind of conditionally Attainable experience, knowledge, and belief.

(4) Notwithstanding whatever is conditionally experienced, or known, or believed, Reality Is, Always and Already.

(5) Only Reality Is Real God.

(6) Necessarily, Reality Is Truth.

(7) Only Truth Is Real God.

(8) Real God Is Reality and Truth.

(9) Real God Is The God Of Reality and Truth.

(10) Real God Is The God That Is Reality and Truth.

(11) Reality and Truth Is That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(12) Real God Is That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(13) Therefore, Real God Need Not Be Sought.

(14) Real God Is Only Avoided By Any Kind Of Seeking.

(15) To Seek Is To Fail To Admit and To Realize Real God, or That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(16) Real God Is Realized Only By "Locating" That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(17) To "Locate" That Which Is Always Already The Case Is To Realize Non-Separation and Non-Differentiation From That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(18) To "Locate" and, Thus and Thereby, To Realize That Which Is Always Already The Case Is To Transcend the ego-"I" (and even all that is merely conditional, limited, temporal, spatial, other, separate, or "different").

(19) To "Locate", and, Thus and Thereby, To Realize That Which Is Always Already The Case Is Merely, Inherently, and Inherently Perfectly To Be That Which Is Always Already The Case.

(20) To Be That Which Is Always Already The Case Is (Perfectly Prior To the ego-"I" and all conditions) To Be Reality and Truth.

(21) To Be Reality and Truth Is (Perfectly Prior To the ego-"I" and all conditions) To Be Real God, or That Which Is Otherwise (and By Myth and Error) Sought As God.

(22) Therefore, Real God Is Not Other, Separate, or "Different". Real God (or The Divine Person, Which Is Reality, or Truth, or That Which Is Always Already The Case) Is Always Already (Inherently and Inherently Perfectly) Prior To The "Who", The "What", The "That", The "Where", The "When", The "How", and The "Why" That Is (By conditional experience, or conditional knowledge, or conditional belief) Presumed To Be Really and Only Other, Separate, or "Different". Therefore, Real God Is Always Already Prior To the ego-"I". Indeed, Real God Is Always Already Prior To each and every conditionally Attained experience, or form of knowledge, or form of belief.

(23) The Presumption Of "cause" Is a Principal (and, Necessarily, conditionally Attained) experience, form of knowledge, or form of belief Associated With the ego-"I". And the (Necessarily, conditionally Attained) belief In "The Ultimate Cause", and The Search For (Necessarily, conditional) experience or knowledge Of "The Ultimate Cause", Is The Ultimate Occupation Of the ego-"I". This Notwithstanding, Real God (or The One and True Divine Person, Which Is Reality, or Truth, or That Which Is Always Already The Case) Is Always Already Prior To The (Necessarily, conditionally) Presumed and Pursued "Ultimate Cause". Therefore, Real God Is Not "The Ultimate Cause" (The Solitary and Interested, or Even Deluded, First Doer Of conditional events). God (As God) Does Not Make effects (or Even Stand Apart From them, By Causing them). God (As God) Is Inherently Indifferent (and Perfectly Prior) To cause and effect (or every Apparent, and Apparently conditional, event).

(24) Every Apparent event (or every Apparently caused effect), Once it has appeared, Becomes itself a cause of subsequent effects. Even every conditional being, with all of its limitations, is a cause, and the effect of causes of all kinds. This Is Why the conditional (or phenomenal) worlds Are A Struggle With Negativity and limitation. And God (As God) Is Eternally Prior (and Indifferent) To Struggle, Negativity, and limitation.

(25) God Is Not The Maker Of conditional Nature.

(26) God Is The Unconditional Nature (or Most Prior Condition) Of conditional Nature.

(27) God Is Not Merely The Cause Of all causes and all effects.

(28) God Is The Source and The Source-Condition Of all causes and all effects.

(29) God Is Not The Objective Source and Source-Condition Of all causes and all effects.

(30) God Is The (Perfectly) Subjective Source and Source-Condition (or Self-Condition) Of all causes and all effects.

(31) God Is Not Outside You.

(32) God Is Not Within You.

(33) God Is You (Perfectly Prior To Your Apparently objective conditional self, and Perfectly Prior To Your Apparently subjective conditional self, and, Therefore, Perfectly Prior To Your Total, Complex, and Merely Apparent conditional self). . . .

(34) Even Though God (As God) Merely Is (Always Already, or Inherently and Eternally Prior To cause and effect), the God-Seeking ego-"I" (or every human being whose Heart is self-Contracted, and who, As A Result, Wants Toward "Ultimate" experience, knowledge, or belief) Characteristically Tries To Argue For experience Of, or knowledge Of, or belief In God (or The "Ultimate" Proposed To Be experienced, known, or believed In) By Appealing To The Logic Of cause and effect. Therefore, In their "Ultimate" Arguments For The "Ultimate", and In their (Necessarily, conditional) experiences, knowings, and believings Attained In The Course Of their Seeking For The "Ultimate", the God-Seeking human egos Propose That God Is The Cause (and The Doer) Of everything, but, Even Though they (Necessarily, conditionally) experience, or know, or believe, these (Necessarily, conditionally) experiencing, or knowing, or believing egos Do Not Stand Free. They Only Cling To the (Necessarily, imperfect) conditional self and the (Necessarily, imperfect) worlds of the conditional self. Therefore, they Do Not Realize Real God (or The Perfect Itself) By Heart, Through self-Transcending Love-Communion, To The Inherently Most Perfect Degree Of Inherently Perfect Love-Bliss (Beyond All "Difference").

(35) God Is The God (or The Truth and The Reality) Of Consciousness Itself.

(36) God Is The God (or The Truth and The Reality) Of Inherently Perfect Subjectivity.

(37) God Is Not The God (or The Implicated Maker) Of conditional Nature, Separate self, and All Objectivity.

(38) God Is The God (or The Truth and The Reality) Of Consciousness, Freedom, Love-Bliss, Being, and Oneness.

(39) God Is Not The God (The Cause, The Doer, or Even The Victim) Of Un-Consciousness (or mere causes and effects).

(40) Therefore, God Is Not The God Of Bondage, Un-Happiness, Death (or Separation), and "Difference".

(41) God Is The Subject, Not The Object.

(42) God Is The Inherent Unity Of Being.

(43) God Is The Integrity, Not The Cause, Of the world.

(44) God Is The True Source, The Very Context, The Real Substance, The Truth-Condition, The Very Reality, The Most Native Condition, and The Ultimate Self-Domain Of all conditions, all causes, and all effects, For all that appears Comes From God (but In God, and Only As God).

(45) All "things" Are the media of all "things", but God Is Not The Maker, For God Is Like A Hidden Spring Within the water's world, and God Is Prior Even To Cause (and every cause), and God Is The Self-Domain Of Even every effect, and God Is The Being (Itself) Of all that appears.

(46) Therefore, God Merely Is, and Is Is What Grants every appearance (every being, every thing, every condition, and every conditional process) The Sign Of Mystery, Love, Bliss, and Joy.

(47) Yes, God Is The Deep Of the world, and The Heart Of every Would-Be "I".>>>



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/25/2002 7:03:54 PM
From: James Calladine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
"there is nothing more to life than meets the eye? "

Even more basic than that! (from Adi Da)

<<<(42) When you are simply free, without motion in yourself, then you realize the eternal Reality, the absolute God, Who is not other than any experience at all, not other than any condition whatsoever. Reality or Bliss is the Condition of present conditions, the Reality of present conditions. It is not elsewhere, not inside in the form of a light, a sound, a voice, a vision, an idea, a place. The Realization of the Divinity does not involve the slightest subjective orientation, not even the slightest. On the contrary, the Realization of God is a matter of total, absolute freedom from recoil, contraction, and inwardness. God-Realization is not the inversion of feeling-attention-which is just a way of saying the recoil or contraction of feeling-attention-but the complete release of feeling-attention to Infinity via all of these functions, relations, conditions.

(43) Standing in a position of no recoil in the midst of all conditions, you intuit the Reality and are happy. There is tacit certainty of Happiness in that Realization. It does not necessarily carry with it any experience or any knowledge of what happens after death or what other worlds there are, gross or subtle. Such experience or knowledge may arise, but in themselves they can create no certainty or happiness or love. Quite independent of such knowledge or such experience we may be completely happy and free in any moment. When we are free of the inversion of attention, free of the recoil of feeling-attention, free of the self-directed tendency in relations and in the pattern of experience, when we are so equalized, so fully conscious, so free of reaction and recoil, then we are completely free of the argument of inwardness, of mind, of the belief that Reality is an ultimate cause to be found only through turning within. That whole automated program is lifted from us and becomes totally unnecessary.>>>

Namaste!

Jim



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/26/2002 6:25:20 AM
From: Andy Thomas  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
--is there any chance that there truly is a spiritual realm, and the great deception is believing that there is nothing more to life than meets the eye?
--

oh hell yes...



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/26/2002 1:12:51 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
In days of old, most if not all cultures worshiped some spirit or entity. Today, especially here in America, we worship self and money. Has anything really changed?

A few posts back , when pointing out to Frederick here that there is no "Hell" , and in truth no Evil as well , I gave in to the temptation to say if there was a Hell , then it might have been on one of those White Slave ships crossing the Atlantic a few Centuries ago to America .

It's true that early Christian princes were not allowed to
indulge in usury , but some of the early Christian Princes
of America seemed to allow themselves the right to indulge in human slavery .

Well the formula was simple . As many a good God fearing Christian then managed to see , slavery meant cheap labor of the human kind , fertile soil and harvests brought in from the sweat of slaves that afforded them a competitive edge for their goods on the European markets , especially cotton and tobacco , which were in high demand,
and the money/capital that was desperately needed and generated by a new fledgling country . A country still very much caught up in the rivalries , intrigues and wars of Europe ...that needed to also compete and was expanding.

Then there is the matter of the Indian indigenous peoples that were already here ...but that is a story that has been repeated throughout history ...man's migrations and the displaced and disposessed . A trail of tears too long to go into here but every bit of it completely relevent.

And Slavery flourished for how long here till the Civil War ? And don't forget there were other forms of slavery just as real that were practiced in the north both during , before and after the Civil War , leading up well into the twentieth Century ...I can think of Coal and metal mines , railroad building or the textile mills that were grueling and completely dehumanizing and even used children by the thousands.

It so often amazes me here , when people talk of God and God's lovely messages thru the Bible or the Koran , that they so often ignore the realities of the way things have gone century after century . But God is a personal matter always , and religion is most often a facade for politics,
and an excuse for men to fill each other's eyes.

But I would say that some things have changed , yes ...very much so. I can name a few very incredible examples of change in this last Century . Mahatma Ghandi , who in my opinion easily surpasses Jesus Christ in deed and works , liberating India from the British using non-violence , or
Nelson Mandela of South Africa who's story I am particularly fond of .

Or Martin Luther King , another , who went to India to study non-violence at the invitation of Nehru .

In days of old, most if not all cultures worshiped some spirit or entity.

Yes , all in all it is a pretty magical place , this space-ship Earth ....this bright blue ball spinning thru space , and man's time as a species upon it , some 3 million years
all told has been pretty eventful ...especially the last
5000yrs since language and writing have managed to record it .

Some very interesting running threads of thought definelty began to develope in man's thinking and deepest intuititive
mind that happens especially around the millinea before Christian era in Greece , India , Persia and in China.

Fortunately for all of us , those records, stories , myths and legends have been allowed to to be re~discovered explored and revealed through research and archaeology , or
preserved through several Religions and Philosophies that
the Christians could not entirely wipe out or destroy such
as Buddhism and Hinduism , the latter being the Eldest and
Mother of all religions of the earth today still.

In a post to Frederick , I was pointing out that the Golden Rule was not spoken first by Jesus , but much earlier by a Saint in India called Mahavira and there were 25 or 26 great sages , swamis and saints before him in only that one lineage . And that was 600BCE .

Later , the same words were spoken by Buddha , and also the the thread of thought of loving your enemies , turning the other cheek etc etc , that Christians believe only was spoken by Jesus . Well that was never the case , and some of the richest and most lucid examples of self-renunciation, living spiritually , and understanding how to live simply so others might simply live, and reverence for all life came out of the East ...as well as the great science of self , Yoga.

Islam is a remake of Christianity and Judaism , just dressed up and decorated a little differently . But for some religion is just frozen in time ...the Last Prophet or last Messiah etc , which is utter nonsense . It just doesn't work that way .

If things have not changed, is there any chance that there truly is a spiritual realm, and the great deception is believing that there is nothing more to life than meets the eye?

You mean something greater than Walmart , the largest company on earth ?

For me there is .



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/26/2002 2:53:24 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
Interesting post on a book : "The Blessings of Slavery" by George Fitzhugh,(1857 made by NeoCon, I found on a SI search for an HG Wells quote I was looking for . Search engines never cease to amaze me.

NeoCon adds here :
Message 12715238

"" The book from which this was taken was widely admired in the South, and even became known in radical circles in the North, for its indictment of capitalism. If I remember correctly, it was from this book that Marx (who followed developments in the United States)got the term "wage- slave":"

"The Blessings of Slavery" (1857)

The negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and in some sense, the freest people in the world. The children and the aged and infirm work not at all, and yet have all the comforts and necessaries of life provided for them. They enjoy liberty, because they are oppressed neither by care or labor. The women do little hard work, and are protected from the despotism of their husbands by their masters. The negro men and stout boys work, on the average, in good weather, no more than nine hours a day. The balance of their time is spent in perfect abandon. Besides, they have their Sabbaths and holidays. White men, with so much of license and abandon, would die of ennui; but negroes luxuriate in corporeal and mental repose. With their faces upturned to the sun, they can sleep at any hour; and quiet sleep is the gretest of human enjoyments. "Blessed be the man who invented sleep." 'Tis happiness in itself-and results from contentment in the present, and confident assurance of the future. We do not know whether free laborers ever sleep. They are fools to do so; for, whilst they sleep, the wily and watchful capitalist is devising means to ensnare and exploit them. The free laborer must work or starve. He is more of a slave than the negro, because he works longer and harder for less allowance than the slave, and has no holiday, because the cares of life with him begin when its labors end. He has no liberty and not a single right. . . .
Until the lands of America are appropriated by a few, population becomes dense, competition among laborers active, employment uncertain, and wages low, the personal liberty of all the whites will continue to be a blessing. We have vast unsettled territories; population may cease to increase slowly, as in most countries, and many centuries may elapse before the question will be practically suggested, whether slavery to capital be preferable to slavery to human masters. But the negro has neither energy nor enterprise, and, even in our sparser populations, finds with his improvident habits, that his liberty is a curse to himself, and a greater curse to the society around him. These considerations, and others equally obvious, have induced the South to attempt to defend negro slavery as an exceptional institution, admitting, nay asserting, that slavery, in the general or in the abstract, is morally wrong, and against common right. With singular inconsistency, after making this admission, which admits away the authority of the Bible, of profane history, and of the almost universal practice of mankind-they turn around and attempt to bolster up the cause of negro slavery by these very exploded authorities. If we mean not to repudiate all divine, and almost all human authority in favor of slavery, we must vindicate that institution in the abstract.

To insist that a status of society, which has been almost universal, and which is expressly and continually justified by Holy Writ, is its natural, normal, and necessary status, under the ordinary circumstances, is on its face a plausible and probable proposition. To insist on less, is to yield our cause, and to give up our religion; for if white slavery be morally wrong, be a violation of natural rights, the Bible cannot be true. Human and divine authority do seem in the general to concur, in establishing the expediency of having masters and slaves of different races. In very many nations of antiquity, and in some of modern times, the law has permitted the native citizens to become slaves to each other. But few take advantage of such laws; and the infrequency of the practice establishes the general truth that master and slave should be of different national descent. In some respects the wider the difference the better, as the slave will feel less mortified by his position. In other respects, it may be that too wide a difference hardens the hearts and brutalizes the feeling of both master and slave. The civilized man hates the savage, and the savage returns the hatred with interest. Hence West India slavery of newly caught negroes is not a very humane, affectionate, or civilizing institution. Virginia negroes have become moral and intelligent. They love their master and his family, and the attachment is reciprocated. Still, we like the idle, but intelligent house-servants, better than the hard-used, but stupid outhands; and we like the mulatto better than the negro; yet the negro is generally more affectionate, contented, and faithful.

The world at large looks on negro slavery as much the worst form of slavery; because it is only acquainted with West India slavery. But our Southern slavery has become a benign and protective institution, and our negroes are confessedly better off than any free laboring population in the world. How can we contend that white slavery is wrong, whilst all the great body of free laborers are starving; and slaves, white or black, throughout the world, are enjoying comfort? . . .

The aversion to negroes, the antipathy of race, is much greater at the North than at the South; and it is very probable that this antipathy to the person of the negro, is confounded with or generates hatred of the institution with which he is usually connected. Hatred to slavery is very generally little more than hatred of negroes.

There is one strong argument in favor of negro slavery over all other slavery; that he, being unfitted for the mechanic arts, for trade, and all skillful pursuits, leaves those pursuits to be carried on by the whites; and does not bring all industry into disrepute, as in Greece and Rome, where the slaves were not only the artists and mechanics, but also the merchants.

Whilst, as a general and abstract question, negro slavery has no other claims over other forms of slavery, except that from inferiority, or rather peculiarity, of race, almost all negroes require masters, whilst only the children, the women, and the very weak, poor, and ignorant, &c., among the whites, need some protective and governing relation of this kind; yet as a subject of temporary, but worldwide importance, negro slavery has become the most necessary of all human institutions.

The African slave trade to America commenced three centuries and a half since. By the time of the American Revolution, the supply of slaves had exceeded the demand for slave labor, and the slaveholders, to get rid of a burden, and to prevent the increase of a nuisance, became violent opponents of the slave trade, and many of them abolitionists. New England, Bristol, and Liverpool, who reaped the profits of the trade, without suffering from the nuisance, stood out for a long time against its abolition. Finally, laws and treaties were made, and fleets fitted out to abolish it; and after a while, the slaves of most of South America, of the West Indies, and of Mexico were liberated. In the meantime, cotton, rice, sugar, coffee, tobacco, and other products of slave labor, came into universal use as necessaries of life. The population of Western Europe, sustained and stimulated by those products, was trebled, and that of the North increased tenfold. The products of slave labor became scarce and dear, and famines frequent. Now, it is obvious, that to emancipate all the negroes would be to starve Western Europe and our North. Not to extend and increase negro slavery, pari passu, with the extension and multiplication of free society, will produce much suffering. If all South America, Mexico, the West Indies, and our Union south of Mason and Dixon's line, of the Ohio and Missouri, were slaveholding, slave products would be abundant and cheap in free society; and their market for their merchandise, manufactures, commerce, &c., illimitable. Free white laborers might live in comfort and luxury on light work, but for the exacting and greedy landlords, bosses, and other capitalists.

We must confess, that overstock the world as you will with comforts and with luxuries, we do not see how to make capital relax its monopoly-how to do aught but tantalize the hireling. Capital, irresponsible capital, begets, and ever will beget, the immedicabile vulnus of so-called Free Society. It invades every recess of domestic life, infects its food, its clothing, its drink, its very atmosphere, and pursues the hireling, from the hovel to the poor-house, the prison and the grave. Do what he will, go where he will, capital pursues and persecutes him. "Haeret lateri lethalis arundo!"

Capital supports and protects the domestic slave; taxes, oppresses, and persecutes the free laborer.

From George Fitzhugh, Cannibals All! or Slaves Without Masters (Richmond, Va.: A. Morris, 1857), 294-299

Neo goes on to add :

This was the most stunningly candid defense of paternalism, not merely for the black man, but for the masses, published in the United States. The term "liberal plantation" has something to it.......



To: Grandk who wrote (11178)2/26/2002 3:01:16 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
Jonathan Edwards, from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (1741)

. . . This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ. That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone, is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of; there is nothing between you and hell but the air; 'tis only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.
You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but don't see the hand of God in it, but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his hand, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it.

Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and, if God should let you go, you would immediately sink, and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf; and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock. . . .

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet 'tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. . . .

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in! 'Tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of fire and of wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of Divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it and burn it asunder. . . .

It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite, horrible, misery. . . .

How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in danger of this great wrath and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious, they may otherwise be. Oh! that you would consider it, whether you be young or old!

From Johnathan Edwards, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (1741)," in The Great Awakening, eds. Alan Heimert and Perry Miller (Indianpolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1969).

* Have the times changed ? Let's hope so.

very heavy stuff this everlasting Hell crap, i mean "stuff" pardon..but the way was ever steep and narrow I guess and there be sea~dragons and monsters awaiting in some lake of fire somewhere . Uh huh....not.
non plus ultra ( not more beyond )