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To: sun-tzu who wrote (33838)3/9/2002 4:28:42 PM
From: David Zgodzinski  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 209892
 
>Sorry for the tough love but this is war.

I thought it was art



To: sun-tzu who wrote (33838)3/9/2002 9:50:43 PM
From: Perspective  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 209892
 
If you don't know yourself, and you don't have a fundamental strategy that works, you will eventually self-destruct. If you are fortunate enough to be able to anticipate every move of the market, kudos. You should be the wealthiest individual on the planet within a few short years.

Personally, I don't give a rat's arse about what the market is going to do tomorrow, next week, or even next month. In order to generate exceptional returns, it is only necessary to know where it will be in a year. I'm not in this to get rich quick. I'm a gardener. I select plants, put them in the ground, tend to the garden, pull the weeds, and await the harvest patiently.

I've seen your trades. You seem to have a knack for the short term. Congratulations - you are very fortunate! I could do far better if I could only learn to pick the harvest when it has ripened enough to feed me, rather than awaiting its maximum potential. Too often I've watched as the crop is destroyed while I await the maximum yield.

I shared this letter among a few friends who have had a tough time as the market has moved against what a rational individual would expect. I thought it might contain insights that would be helpful to some. I guess you only see a poor trader.

My investing idol is Warren Buffet, and I don't see his success based upon strategies that you employ. I would like to think the Master would approve of my approach. Evidently you do not.

Good luck to you.

BC



To: sun-tzu who wrote (33838)3/9/2002 10:05:01 PM
From: yard_man  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 209892
 
I don't think it is zero sum -- it is negative sum. Country as a whole is poorer and will be poorer for having participated in the mania. But I agree -- for the individual, right on a FA basis is worthless. Trade to win.



To: sun-tzu who wrote (33838)3/10/2002 4:25:49 PM
From: Perspective  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 209892
 
As for the stated intent of your letter, to share insight amongst friends who may find them helpful. What good is it to continuously have positive reinforcement from the same subset? One of the best ways to improve is to receive constructive criticism. If I wanted people to slap me on the back, I would post on some daytrader thread. Instead, I reside on the CFZ because I am philosophically aligned with most. As such, I constantly and deliberately expose myself to criticism for my trading, particularly when I go long. This is purposeful because I want to learn and improve.

My apologies, Sun. Your criticism is excellent. You are right; this is not a support group, it's a trading thread. I owe you gratitude, not the retort that I sent before. Please, please, PLEASE: continue to be critical - that is far more valuable than comraderie. I value CFZ because it is one of the few sources of independent thought on the markets.

I simply do not understand an 'investment' strategy based on shorting, precious metals and currency swaps. I also have a great deal of respect for Warren Buffet and consume every word as it relates to the master. I have never seen Buffet play these type of games with his investment portfolio. Buffett owns the likes of AXP, KO, G, WFC, WPO and HRB. He doesn't own gold, yen, euros, foreign bonds and is not short stock. You state that Buffet's success doesn't rely on strategies that I employ. Does his success reside in strategies that you employ?

You're right - Buffet probably doesn't sell short. But what is wrong with holding gold mining stocks and shorting as a secular bear market investing strategy? I've never understood the common aversion to shorting, and why it's considered so "risky". It's just the inverse of going long. What's the difference between

a) finding Company X at a good value in the depths of a bear market, buying and holding until it's quintupled, and selling when it is overvalued
-and-
b) finding Company Y after it's quintupled, at the end of a bull market, shorting and holding until it's returned to reasonable valuation, and covering?

There are a few mechanical differences, but ultimately they are just mirror images of one another. One you do in a secular bull, the other you do in a secular bear.

I would imagine Buffet would buy a gold mining company if it represented value, and I imagine he is concerned about holding things denominated in a currency that is being debauched daily by our Fed. Who said anything about currency swaps? I'm looking for an international bond fund that buys government bonds yielding around 5-7% (ie not Japanese bonds) that isn't hedging currency risk. I *want* to hold foreign currency because of the dollar risk.

No, Buffet doesn't employ my trading strategies, but he certainly approaches investing dogmatically: he only buys value. Even traders have a dogma, but they would probably call it entry criteria. Buffet looks for a company with unlocked value that he thinks he can release over a period of a few years; a trader sees it in a chart pattern, ie trendline breach, that he thinks makes the stock likely to fall in price in the next few days or weeks, and establishes a position. They are not that different. Or perhaps I misunderstand your comment about being dogmatic.

I am not inflexible in opinion, but I find it impractical to shift a portfolio around in any substantial fashion on a day-to-day basis. And if I don't have some basic investing principles, I find it easy to forget what the whole point is. I am most comfortable buying growth at a reasonable price, and waiting for the company to grow. That's all I ever really wanted out of the market. However, the end of the secular bull has forced me to learn short-selling. I have no real interest in day-trading, but my "year-trading" seems to forgo a great deal of intermediate gains when, through simply closing some winners more quickly, I might capture more gains with less exposure and stress. What I seek is to become a successful "month-trader", modulating my portfolio exposure by 20-40% from month to month based on intermediate trends. I thought the January high was it for this bear market rally, so I re-established my positions. Now I am stepping back because that assumption was proven wrong by the market. I don't believe in this rally, and won't buy into it. I have no interest in it. I will await the next turning point that I think offers reasonable risk/reward, synchronizing the intermediate trend (where we are going to be in 20 trading days) with the long term trend (where we are going in 200 trading days), and try again. By my own definition, perhaps this bear market rally off the September lows was one I wanted to capture. However, I just didn't find anything that I felt time would ultimately bail me out on if I were wrong. Time remains the enemy of the bull here.

I will say that I am in the midst of a great deal of soul searching right now, and it extends well beyond the market realm. As part of that, I'm trying to nail down the role that my market activities should play in my life. Should I be a trader or an investor? I believe the only real difference is time scale. There are no true "buy and holds" - why would you buy it if you didn't plan to sell it at some point in time? Therefore, everything is bought to be sold. You develop a thesis, ie Company X represents value because of Y, wait for an appropriate entry, monitor the status of the thesis, and if the value is realized, you exit the position. The distinction between investor and trader is probably only the time scales and thesis involved. At first I wanted to be a trader, but I think it requires a substantial time commitment. I wonder if the return on invested time is worthwhile. The market will probably permit a good investor to earn around 10% per year without a whole lot of time consumed. How much more does a good trader make? Is it worth the additional time? Before I suspected it was not; these days I'm starting to believe it might actually be worth it.

Even Buffet knows that the default move for the capital markets is up. Long term investment strategies that are based solely on bear market tactics will not make money...emphasis on long-term

I disagree with the common notion that markets predominantly go up. My observation would be that they spend roughly equal time going up vs. down, usually in rough 40-year cycles, but they go up more in the up phases than they go down in the down phases.

That, I think, is one of the core philosophies or dogmas uniting the CFZ - that this is not a cyclical bear in the context of an ongoing bull, but rather a secular bear, wherein the cyclical bears are longer in time and price than the cyclical bulls. As a result, for the next several years at least, the "default move" may not in fact be up.

BC



To: sun-tzu who wrote (33838)3/10/2002 4:26:55 PM
From: Perspective  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 209892
 
<This market cares nothing about who is right and who is wrong. >

Actually, in fact, it does. If you see that a company is going to go bankrupt, the stock will go to zero. Period. If you see a company that is going to be fabulously successful, its stock will eventually go up. Over the long haul, equities track underlying fundamentals. In the short haul, it can do all sorts of gyrations, of course.

<What good is it to be "right" and broke? >

Exactly - the trick is not getting bankrupted in the mean time, and trying to minimize the amount of time between establishing the position and having the market move your way.

<As for being dogmatic, where does that get you?...frustrated, angry and upset, limiting your ability to make consistent money. It also prevents you from enjoying the things that truly count; family, friends and life.>

I don't go long in bear markets, and I don't short in bull markets. Period. Is that dogmatic? I don't think so - just logical. Most stocks go the way of the market, and it's simpler not to fight the tide.

BC