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To: Solon who wrote (3535)	3/19/2002 6:03:56 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

It is likely that the very fact Canada does not have the death penalty allows time for circumstance and investigation to discover the truth. Death sort of closes the door on most defensive efforts... The extra extensive appeals process for capital cases in the US could have a similar effect in terms of allowing extra time. However I would not be surprised if an innocent man was put to death. Such events would probably be very rare but no matter how many appeals are allowed, and despite the normal presumption of innocence, it could and perhaps has happened. No system is perfect. Certainly the justice systems in the various American states are not perfect. Tim

To: Solon who wrote (3535)	3/19/2002 6:53:57 PM
From: J. C. Dithers	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

The execution of innocent people.... Glad to see you back, Solon. Here are my thoughts on the claim that innocent people have been executed. I know nothing about the cases you cite in Canada, but my impression of the Canadian justice system is that it is excellent and trustworthy, so I would be very skeptical of such claims. I would rather suspect that what has happened in the U.S.A. has happened in Canada -- that death penalty opponents play fast and loose with the facts in asserting that it is a proven fact that innocent people have been put to death. The very idea of "proving innocence" presents the same difficulties as proving any other negative. Being found "not guilty" in a court of law (as in a re-trial) does not prove innocence, nor is it legally claimed to do so. The fact that another person confesses to the crime at issue does not prove innocence, and in fact is a fairly common occurrence in the jailhouse culture. As powerful as DNA evidence may be, it is rarely if ever conclusive by itself in proving innocence (or guilt, for that matter). More commonly, "exculpatory" DNA evidence merely implicates another in the same crime, which is not the same as proving innocence of the person convicted. Indeed, very few death row appeals are based upon a claim of innocence. The great majority of such appeals are based upon legal issues arising from the conviction -- what we usually call "technicalities." Opponents of capital punishment in the U.S.A. toss around an assortment of numbers of those people either executed or sentenced to death row, who were later found to be "innocent." I have not seen one single instance of such an alleged case where innocence was "proven." I believe it would be extraordinarily difficult, probably impossible, to do so. IMO, of the various arguments that can be raised against the death penalty, the "innocent person" claim is among the weakest. JC

To: Solon who wrote (3535)	3/20/2002 6:37:10 AM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

Is there much call for posthumous investigation of death penalty victims? Personally, I see no point in keeping serial murderers, rapists, violent criminals, Enron executives etc alive. Why pay for them to live? BUT... Absolutely the only qualm I have is about wrongful execution (AKA judicial murder). But although I've seen US defenders of CP say that there have been no executions of those proven innocent - has anyone actually checked? I can't see the police, or FBI, or justice dept, exactly happy to go through a case where they've had someone executed and painstakingly prove "Whoopsie. Silly us. We killed someone innocent.", after all... Plus, most of the executed, as I understand, tend to be poor, disproportionately black, often mentally weak, etc. They don't have much leverage, they don't have influential friends who do, basically no one cares - so who'd bother? I don't see treasonous CIA executives - who happen to be well-paid and white - getting death for betraying their people and their country. Pity. In the UK we've had various notorious wrongful convictions that would have been death-penalty material - especially in some big terrorist mass-murder cases. The pressure to investigate and re-solve these came because the 'guilty' were still alive, behind bars...