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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: axial who wrote (22699)	3/30/2002 5:12:14 PM
From: BigBull	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Ah, I see you are an Idealist. Are all wars evil?

To: axial who wrote (22699)	3/30/2002 6:36:05 PM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>>It is strange, bizarre, and unbelievable that people will endlessly argue about nit-picking specifics as the situation they are ostensibly "discussing" degrades into chaos and death.<< Once again I'm in agreement. Except the part about 'degrades into'. As near as I can tell, chaos and death in that corner of the world is intermittent. It increases, it decreases. Repeat and rinse. Negotiation has not stopped it. Military action has not stopped it. Valuing life has not stopped it. You suggest that Israel can stop it if "they will sit down at a table and try to negotiate a peace." How many times, for how long and which table? I seem to recall they have done this repeatedly. They backed off when Zinni returned and news reports suggest they were ready to art least negotiate a ceasefire, while Arafat refused to. How can this intransigence be addressed? Should the Israelis negotiate only after each fresh attack by Arafat? Can you not see that Arafat is only emboldened to continue the attacks if it repeatedly drives Israel to the table to give up more, till Israel has nothing left? Yes, war is strange, bizarre, and unbelievable. It always will be. But choosing not to fight when the other choices yield no solutions is not normal and believable. It is suicide, which is even more strange, bizarre, and unbelievable than war is.

To: axial who wrote (22699)	3/30/2002 7:13:26 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

It is strange, bizarre, and unbelievable that people would advocate death, destruction, and the horror of war - including the use of nuclear arms and the deaths of millions of innocents - before they will sit down at a table and try to negotiate a peace. Yeah... well... welcome to the human race Jim... I also find it strange that people will drive 80 miles an hours on a crowded freeway, in the middle of a drenching downpour and/or thick fog, AND NOT HAVE THEIR LIGHTS ON... (they do that all the time on the DC beltway). I find it strange that people will drive 50 miles an hour in the left lane of the highway, and seem to have no clue that when someone "flicks" their headlights from behind you, it means GET OUTTA MY WAY, I WANT TO PASS YOU!! And I find it strange that people will kill someone else in order to steal their Nikes shoes.. I find it strange that hate crimes mean white on (fill in your own minority), but similar crimes committed by minorities against whites don't meet the same standard. So it certainly doesn't surprise me that people will follow their most nasty Hobbesian instincts, returning to a state of nature. Yep.. welcome to the human race.. Hawk

To: axial who wrote (22699)	3/30/2002 7:51:58 PM
From: BigBull	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

As to what is to be disregarded. First nice twisting of my words. Sorry it won't work. As to your "thought experiment" what would a Martian actually discover. Who actually is killing civilians as a instrument of policy? Al aqsa, Hezbullah, al Qaeda, etc etc etc. Last time I looked there was a giant hole where the WTC once stood. Having read the NYT account of why the WTC fell I am now convinced that those who jumped 100 + stories to their deaths, did so because the searing pain of those unbelievable fires was so unbearable that the concrete below was a blessing. Sorry Jim I find it hard to disregard that. I think the Martians would see that, surely. They might even see pizzerias blowing up, some hotels, an embassy or two, some poor reportter getting his head cut off, women beaten for nothing, and on and on and on. That's reality, not some Olympian "thought experiment". Ah but why do we bother Jim? You and will never really agree, will we?