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To: Lane3 who wrote (6031)	3/31/2002 2:27:19 PM
From: Poet	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

Huh? Have I not made it clear that I disagree with Ashcroft? And how many times have I defended atheists and agnostics? I was merely looking for a term which included both atheists and agnostics. Lighten up please.

To: Lane3 who wrote (6031)	4/2/2002 8:54:48 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

If you think, as Ashcroft does, that freedom and human dignity come from on high rather than from the collective force of humanity, there ain't no way to include atheists. If freedom and dignity come from God that doesn't mean that atheists would not be able to enjoy them. I don't think Ashcroft said that dignity and freedom only exist for believers. You could theoretically receive a benefit from something or someone that you don't believe exists. If the basket of chocolate that I received on Easter, really did come from the Easter Bunny like the label on it said, then I would still have the chocolate, even though I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. However looking back at the Ashcroft quote I see a reason for atheists and agnostics to take some offense at ""Civilized individuals, Christians, Jews, and Muslims, all understand..." because it could be interpreted as saying that atheists and agnostics (or Hindus, Buddhists ect..) are not civilized. I don't think Ashcroft meant that, but it wouldn't have killed him to choose his words more carefully... Tim