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To: Lane3 who wrote (7266)4/5/2002 7:34:25 PM
From: cosmicforce  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21057
 
The conservative looks with alarm at attacks on the fundamental values and practices of Western Civilization (Does a "liberal" hate the fundamental values of American citizenship?)

This would seem to mean that the self-defined conservative has a narrow and myopic view of reality which can only mesh with their limited personal perspective and static viewpoint. A dynamic viewpoint is the only one that can be sustained. It is interesting that Sun Tzu (a philosopher and author of The Art of War) figured this out more than two and one half millennia ago. Having such a narrow viewpoint, based upon a historically stilted set of principles is as silly as when your teenager pronounces that they, with almost no experience, know better than you, with more experience.

While it would seem that some people eschew provincial and narrow viewpoints, recognizing that local viewpoints almost always seem distorted when viewed from a higher vantage point, others embrace unenlightened ones. It would be quaint and endearing if it wasn't so dangerously deluded.



To: Lane3 who wrote (7266)4/5/2002 8:09:54 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21057
 
I think Neo is distinguishing between the cultural relativism/cultural deference/inclusiveness of the left and his assertion that Western culture is clearly superior in most ways

The problem is that inclusiveness of other values and opinions IS NOT rejection of the fundamental values that all Americans hold and which are properly understood as "values and practices of Western Civilization"

"we should not undermine those institutions in favor of big government"

Government was one of the cherished institutions he referenced in response to my query. Again, acknowledging differences in the details is not the same as phrasing broad statements so as to be intentionally exclusive or misleading.

"A bit of hyperbole, perhaps. Conservatives would be resistant to change and liberals are activist change agents."

"a bit of hyperbole..."! Have you thought of taking up the law in your retirement. You have the gift, Karen!

"This Western culture is so integral to the world view of traditionalists that they get really aroused and upset and dug in when their traditions are challenged, which is disruptive"

So do liberals...traditionalist or otherwise...

"Well, you see, that wouldn't be activist. That would be restoring things to where they should be, where they would have been had the liberals and the courts not been so activist these last few decades."

Well, the dictionary defines activism as "a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue

I suppose that conservatives and liberals both support and oppose controversial issues...:-)

But, I think much of what you say is perhaps tongue in cheek.<g>

"Merit has been undermined by affirmative action."

Disagreeing on the details does not exclude the commonality...

"Devotion to duty has been ridiculed by the "what can my country do for me" attitude of the nanny state

Naw. There may be difference of opinion as to what the duties should be; but liberals are every bit as devoted to duty as conservatives...especially if they work for the Government. <g>

"Honesty and trustworthiness may be references to Clinton and those who vote for him despite his character flaws"

Yes. On that basis all liberals are untrustworthy and dishonest. And all republicans were dishonest and untrustworthy when Harding and Grant were in power!

It is all so amusing. Thanks for joining in, Karen. I certainly am no apologist for William, nor for liberalism. There is much to ridicule and much to praise in either half of the American populace.

However...as we are having some fun, let us laugh at a bit of humour!:-) I am sure I can find plenty from the other side if you are interested...

leftjab.org



To: Lane3 who wrote (7266)4/5/2002 8:19:57 PM
From: Dayuhan  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 21057
 
Conservatives would be resistant to change and liberals are activist change agents.

I'm not so sure about that. I see a lot of agitation for change coming from conservatives.

One thing that I see as a common factor among conservatives, though Neo didn't mention it, is either a belief or an amorphous feeling that at some time in the past things were better, and that if we could make things as they were in that time, things might become better again.

Of course nobody seems to know quite what this golden age was, but there is a great deal of desire to go back to it, a desire sometimes expressed through pressure for quite radical change.



To: Lane3 who wrote (7266)4/6/2002 8:41:36 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 21057
 
Not bad. Now, I will fix it:

Anyone paying attention knows that radicals are actively attacking the West. They do so through calumny, for example, by exaggerating Western crimes. Racism, for example, is much worse in Hindu civilization, reinforced by the caste system, then it has been over time in the West; it is worse in Japan and Korea, even without such direct religious sanction; and it is present in Chinese civilization. In Africa or among the Amerindians, it took the form of regarding unaffiliated tribes as Other. Additionally, the Incas and Aztecs were much crueler to their subject populations than the Spaniards, which is why handfuls of conquistadors could conquer, by enlisting oppressed tribes. Meanwhile, they minimize Western accomplishments, like the abolition of slavery, which is still prevalent in parts of Muslim Africa, and exists surreptitiously in some Asian countries; the rule of law, which is stigmatized as being merely a cover for class interests; science, which is accused of Phallocentrism by radical feminists; the development of a varied and humanistic literature, which is thematically reduced to the unholy trinity of Class, Race, and Sex; the introduction of meritocracy over class privilege, which is stigmatized as a way of keeping minorities down; and so forth. Now, many liberals do not share the radical viewpoint, certainly not on all issues, but they tend to take an indulgent attitude, as if it were not a danger to be combatted. Some political liberals are on board, defending the West, but comparatively few.

The modern world is, to all intents and purposes, the West, with all it has to offer in conceptions of human rights and liberal democracy, economic development, medicine and science, technology, and so forth. It is incumbent upon us to advance the course of modernization, not retard it through a lack of confidence in the worth of what we have to offer, if the peoples of the world are to be freed from poverty, disease, and ceaseless toil.

Again, radicals are prone to put everything up for grabs, and liberals tend to be too indulgent.

Yes, it is not smart to run to the Federal government to force the pace of change, in most cases, especially if there is likely to be social "blowback".

One does not have to be a "traditionalist" per se. The main thing is that it is disruptive to be provocative through aggressive challenge of entrenched beliefs and customs, including through coercive government action, and that one should be leery of creating turmoil, and weigh carefully whether the cause is worth it.

Basically, liberal judges created the Christian Right. Their agenda is not always correct, but it is true that they are mostly seeking to restore practices taken for granted in the '50, and sometimes later, which permit community standards to prevail.

Your end "take", in terms of particular referrents, was very good. I would add that it is a matter of emphasis, whether on personal fulfillment, or on one's obligations, particularly with reference to citizenship and "family values".