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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (25536)	4/16/2002 12:42:22 PM
From: LPS5	Respond to of 281500

Edit.

To: Ilaine who wrote (25536)	4/17/2002 2:03:21 AM
From: unclewest	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

I was trying to make the point that the military already has gays, men and women. Most gay people don't make their orientation known at their place of employment, unless it's a place where being gay is accepted. "Don't ask, don't tell, don't investigate" makes perfect sense to me. I can't see why anyone would oppose it. CB, i knew you were headed there. the don't ask don't tell policy (another gift from clinton) is a failure. it is a social experiment that has not worked...that is a good enough reason to abandon it. the concept of working together in a civilian company and working together in a military environment is completely different at many levels of intimacy. the living conditions are not comparable...soldiers share group showers, open latrines, bathrooms with no walls...they sleep close together in tents, vehicles, and fighting positions. they guard each other while each defecates or urinates. they share toilet paper, canteens, food, clean socks, soap, towels, toothpaste...in short, they are exposed to each other at work in uncommon ways...at least from a civilian perspective. and this exposure goes on 24 hours a day. like it or not...i can tell you that with very very few exceptions, men in this environment do not want to be hit on by gays or exposed to gay sex by others. working with folks in a civilian environment for 40 hours a week and sharing private pristine latrines is just not the same as working and living with someone 24 hours a day for months at a time in a group setting, sharing everything openly. men who have served in front line combat units understand this and have their preference...we have many combat experienced leaders at national level who are quite capable of setting acceptable and welcome rules for our combat fighting forces...this rule was made by someone who never served in the military, never saw combat and was a draft dodger. i know there are cases of gays serving honorably and i applaud them for it. they are a rare exception and the military is not the place for exceptions. for the most part they served in rear echelon units not front line combat units. imagine a straight guy in a female unit sharing every level of personal intimacy required in a combat unit not getting turned on and acting on his desires at some point and just how would the women react to having him in their shower and toilet. don't ask, don't tell, and don't investigate makes perfect sense to me too...until it negatively affects the cohesion and morale of a fighting unit...then a combat commander is obliged to identify the problem and eliminate it for the welfare of the rest of his men. don't tell, don't make passes, and totally supress your sexual desires for men would help the don't ask policy work...if gays would abide by it...but they don't. another argument i hear is how well it works in other countries...i laugh at that, because i know it is a lie...i have served with combat troops from many other countries. i have attended schools with their line unit commanders where we discussed everything. there now...the can of worms is wide open...have fun with it. unclewest