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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:09:40 PM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 281500

That's how the story goes. Gee, Cobalt, you finally figured it out! :) The problem is so bleak that about all anybody can do is stall for time.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:21:50 PM
From: art slott	Respond to of 281500

Cobalt, it's too bad you're being sarcastic. Because you are starting to make sense of it all. Except Bush wasn't lying. He was just listening to the wrong people at the time. >>So far, the pro-Israel argument seems to be that the Crown Prince is a liar for even suggesting that there is a peaceful solution to the problem, and that Bush was a liar when he told Sharon to pull out. The UN is composed of liars, and racists, the EU is composed of liars and racists, and everyone to the left of Ariel Sharon is an anti-Semite and an idiot. Bush is ineffectual and Powell is an errand boy, and Tom DeLay, God help us, is the voice of sanity. That's how the story goes. <<

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:30:50 PM
From: art slott	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I saw Tom Delay speaking at AIPAC (Israeli Lobby)gathering on C Span yesterday. He gave an excellent speech. I must say i'm not used to applauding the man. But there he was as strong an allie of Israel as I have ever seen. I was quite moved. The Dems are going to lose alot of Jewish voters.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:36:15 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

the Crown Prince is a liar for even suggesting that there is a peaceful solution to the problem No, no, no. The Crown Prince is not a liar for suggesting there is a peaceful solution to the problem. The Crown Prince is a liar for suggesting that he supports a peaceful solution to the problem. The Arab League proposal for a two-state solution was a PR stunt, and not a very convincing one if you actually read it. It demands full Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, redividing Jerusalem, and accepting the full Palestinian 'right of return'. And if Israel agrees to all that, the Arab states will offer a vague "normal relations" in return -- not even full normalization, as if that too couldn't be withdrawn in a flash. This was their so-called "major advance". Meantime, in Arabic, they continue to call for the extinction of Israel, continue to publish blood libels against the Jews, and continue to verbally and financially support the "martyrs" of Hamas. Saudi diplomats write poems praising girl suicide bombers, that new frontier of Arab feminism. Outside of some cowed and silenced percentage of the Palestinians themselves, there is little evidence that the Arab world supports a two-state solution, unless the terms guarantee that both states will become Arab Palestine.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:37:22 PM
From: stockman_scott	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Bring all parties to peace conference Wednesday, April 24, 2002 SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER EDITORIAL BOARD Now that the shooting has more or less stopped for the moment inside Palestine, Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is calling for a U.S.-sponsored peace conference to end hostilities. It's a good idea, given that the United States has enormous clout and attendant moral responsibilities as the sole superpower. But any such peace conference must be convened with some strict conditions. The first one ought to be that if the two warring parties don't agree to a solution themselves by a time certain, one will be imposed upon them by the international community -- which pays a significant portion of the cost-of-dying bills for both parties. The agreement must require both parties to treat as a crime any act by their citizens that violates the pact. The goal must be to marginalize violence as a political tool. The second condition must be that not only the United States be on the hook to facilitate peace. While European nations surely should be party to any peace conference, the Arab nations, first and foremost, must step up to the challenge of making peace work between Israel and the Palestinians. That ought to be the message President Bush delivers when he meets with Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah tomorrow. Arab nations have a vital role to play, and not just in providing financial aid for rebuilding Palestinian infrastructure and providing social services. They must help provide the moral leadership that leads to a just peace. That includes confronting those within their own nations engaged in supporting or exporting terrorism to Israel. After all, Arab states, as neighbors to the conflict, are themselves most at risk of political destabilization from the continuing warfare. Three of them -- Jordan, Lebanon and Syria -- still have large populations of disenfranchised Palestinian refugees living on their soil or in refugee camps 54 years after the Arab-Israeli War. It should be obvious that Arab states for their own self-interests must neutralize Palestine as a political flash point. The only way to do that is to assure peace. And so must Israel, unless it wishes to live as a permanent garrison state. The only way to avoid that is to reach an accommodation with Palestine. Israel assuredly has the right to live in peace. That means Israel must have defensible, mutually recognized borders, something it's unlikely to have if it continues to erect settlements in disputed territories. In addition to agreeing to an Arab proposal endorsed by President Bush that Israel withdraw to its pre-1967 borders in exchange for Arab recognition, a solution must be found to the dilemma of the refugees. Their plight is intolerable; it cannot be allowed to continue because it's inhumane and breeds terrorism. Until it is addressed, there will be no end to terrorism in the Middle East. All told, there are 4 million Palestinian refugees. All told, there are 5.3 million Jews in Israel, plus 1.2 million Arabs. So if all 4 million Palestinians were to exercise a "right of return" granted them by the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 in 1948, Israel contends it would be committing "demographic suicide." That's why the right-of-return issue is perhaps the most difficult to resolve. However, it is not insoluble. The U.N. resolution also says refugees can be given financial compensation in lieu of returning to their claimed homeland. Another option is that they be restricted to return only to the new Palestinian state, not Israel or to Israel in limited numbers. Former President Jimmy Carter wisely has urged that the international community contribute to the compensation in lieu of return effort in the name of global stability. The crisis in the Middle East, left in the current stalemate, threatens to spread. If compensation is to work, other nations would have to accept Palestinians as eventual citizens. That's where the Arab states especially could make a most effective contribution to peace. seattlepi.nwsource.com

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:52:30 PM
From: carranza2	Respond to of 281500

Given the virulently anti-Semitic drivel that he allows his heavily-censored press to publish, his support for the families of homicidal bombers, and the lack of discipline against a diplomat/poet who praises the bombers, it is hard to see any connection between Abdullah's conciliatory statements to the Arab League and his deeds. When that lack of connection between statements and actions occurs, it is appropriate to be branded a liar. Bush was not a liar when he said that Sharon should pull out. I think he meant it but had no way of enforcing compliance without a major tiff. As to the the UN being composed of liars, I presume you mean the UN official(s) who cried wolf about Jennin. Yes, people who cry wolf are liars. The people who surrender their critical faculties to them by believing the first thing they hear are simply fools. Bush is not ineffectual--I think that the game is being played fairly shrewdly on his part. Read Gerecht's article for a clue. I don't particularly care for DeLay on many issues, but he has gotten this one right, in my opinion. What does he tell Abdullah?: 1.- "I'm going after Saddam with or without you." 2.- "You need the oil money as much as we need the oil so think about your $40bn debt when you get all antsy about shutting it off." 3.- "Thanks for the Arab League bit of puffery." 4.- "If you are our friend, I want you to help with our 9/11 efforts, and I mean that I want names and locations of [hands list to him]." 5.- "If you are serious about helping the Palestinians, stop funding the families of suicide bombers, it just makes things worse. And can the anti-Semitic crap in your media, it also doesn't ultimately help the Pals."

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 2:58:14 PM
From: William B. Kohn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I cannot believe that FL will allow you to get away with a statement like that. I'll do my best not to sink as low as you have, but it is a valid question. First, I believe that most supporters of Israel feel that the Saudi statement is on its face a step in the right direction, but as Peres said it is a light without a candle. The Crown Prince is not a liar because we believe their is no solution to the problem, we just don't believe that solution is easily articulated at this time. Bush is not a liar, but many have questioned whether he is consistant in his message. Perhaps he cannot be since America's interests may not be condusive to a single message. As for the UN, they are not liars, nor rascists, but they are biased, and often the US feels their bias as well. The EU is not a liar, but noone can deny that many elections of late (Italy, Austria, and now France, with doubts in Holland and Germany as well) point to a rise in fascism. No one can deny that a significant rise in AntiJewish assualts on people and property is happening there as well. There are few people that Pro-Israeli people would consider idiots, but that doesn't mean that no one could fit into that category. I just do not think it is appropriate to name colors. I support a two state solution, I support Bush, I support Mitchell. I think most of my fellow pro-Israeli people do as well. We can speak for ourselves, you don't have to misshape our words. I found your post extremely insulting. I am sure you intended it to be just so. As a long time Cub fan, I sure hope you are not.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26853)	4/24/2002 4:45:17 PM
From: LLLefty	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

CB Here are some talking points (unclassified pap version) for the initial Bush meeting with the Crown Prince: 1. We are honored to have you come such a long distance to stay a spell with us. 2, Our countries have had a long and mutually-beneficial relationship that has spanned the terms of seven American presidents. My administration wants to keep it that way. 3.We have important common interests. We both desire a peaceful Middle East; we both desire an end to the actions of those who would use what we Americans term as terror. We wish to see your country prosper. 4. As you know, the bombing, the outrage, of the WCT and the killing of more than 3,000 people, including, as you know, several score people of your faith who worked in those buildings, prompted me to take vigorous action against those who wish us ill, wherever they are. I would have been remiss had I not taken strong and definitive action against the Taliban regime. 5. One our goals to see that Saddam Hussain, an evil man, never has the opportunity again to threaten your country, as he did 12 years ago--or any other country. We quickly went to your assistance then and that of Kuwait and defeated the Iraqi forces. 6. We are grateful for your wholehearted actions as our partner to defeat Saddam Hussain. I have been told that your country may be reluctant to assist us this time. I would like your views on the future level of assistance we can expect from Saudi Arabia but we can save that for tomorrow if you wish. You know my feeling about Saddam; I've made no secret of them. As long as he remains in power, he is a threat to your country and others in the ME. He has the ability to engulf the region in war. 7. I know you and your people are mightily concerned about the events affecting Palestinians at this difficult time. In this regard, I salute you for your far your brave proposal at the Arab League summit to reach a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. You should know now--and this comes from me and all the members of my government--that we wholeheartedly support the creation of a Palestinian state led by whomever the people of Palestine support (or chose from a ballot) as their leader. 8. You should know as well that the United States has had a long relationship with the state of Israel. We look with sympathy and admiration for its achievements over the years. It is a relationship that we hope will last for another half century and beyond. 9. We have been able to maintain productive relations with your country and that of Israel, despite the occasional tensions that arise. Mr. Sharon is now the leader of Israel and he appears to have overwhelming support from his people, At the same time, both Secretary Powell and I have spoken with Mr. Sharon and he assures us that he accepts UN resolution 242 as the basis for a settlement. He has told me he is interested in your proposal and intends to pursue it. Chairman Arafat likewise reports he seeks a political solution. 10. So now is the time to move. Secretary Powell (nods to Powell) will be discussing with your aides on ways to move this along. He is drafting now a set of principles--guidelines--that could serve as an outline for a final settlement negotiations. We would like your input. I believe you will be pleased that we are engaged intensively and you may be pleased to know what we plan, including the designation of a prominent American who will have my full backing. 11. I have many bilateral matters to discuss with you--and I know you have issues you would like to raise with me. In the meantime, I know you have had a long trip and we can save these matters for a later time. points to be discussed: --More cooperation required from Soudis on investigations of the Saudi terrorists involved in WTC. Need to know Saudi input on Islamist sitn there and knowledge of Saudi Al Qada's elsewhere. Fat chance. -- Saudi assurance that there will be no break in Saudi oil shipments despite possible further ME disturbances. --Assurances that Saudi students are welcome and safe here, but we will screen more carefully than we have in the past and wwould welcome Saudi cooperation in this matter. Don't export your trouble makers here. --Move Saudis to use influence--do they have any?--to seek restraint on Hesbullah, Lebanon and Syria and the rest of the gang that threatens Israel's northern border. --We'd like you to buy more big-ticket US goods.