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Technology Stocks : Advanced Micro Devices - Moderated (AMD) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: burn2learn who wrote (78634)	4/28/2002 3:59:00 AM
From: wanna_bmw	Respond to of 275872

b2l, very provocative post. I really like it. (eom) wbmw

To: burn2learn who wrote (78634)	4/28/2002 11:09:22 AM
From: h0db	Respond to of 275872

b2l-- great post, providing real insight into how the magic happens (or doesn't). Thanks a lot.

To: burn2learn who wrote (78634)	4/28/2002 11:39:52 AM
From: Elmer	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 275872

The question I want answered is why can’t AMD match Intel for die yields. What are the aspects to the differences in defect density and bin split performance that they can’t figure out? Maybe it’s as simple as they allow for significant litho related losses to maintain competitive on speed. Maybe with the design changes and constant process improvements to gain speed they don’t prioritize sustaining? You guys do assume it’s magical and just happens, speed comes from process improvements as well as design fixes. The process engineers must be experiencing shell shock, or just plain numb at this point. I think much could be gained in assuming ELMER’s numbers are right and trying to get the answers to why, or thought to prove / disprove. Forget what Intel does, question only AMD’s performance. B2L, I agree. I don't think we should try to compare AMD to Intel because no one has presented any data to accurately calculate Intel's defect density. I think the most reasonable explanation for AMD's low yields is not high defect density at all but binsplit. The design ran out of gas and AMD can't get very many parts at a marketable speed. That's the best explanation to cover all the facts. The slower parts are scrapped. Plain and simple. It doesn't require any mysterious rise in defect density or other fab issue. AMD's process is fine. It's the design that's the "problem", for lack of a better word. The .13u transistors on their .18u process was the first giveaway. They were pulling every single rabbit out of their fab hat just like Intel did with CuMine. P4 is running away from Athlon because it's a better design, just like Athlon ran away from CuMine. What would have happened to Intel's "yields" if the reverse had happened and AMD had all the fab capacity and Intel had a single modest fab and poor CuMine binsplits? Intel would have had millions of parts too slow to sell. We'd be looking at the fab output and wondering what the problem was. So my guess is that AMD's .18u process is healthy and probably always has been. As for their .13u process, well that's another story. EP

To: burn2learn who wrote (78634)	4/28/2002 12:22:57 PM
From: semiconeng	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 275872

My point is to show that AMD engineering are people too. There are only so many hours in the day and with a small company it’s expected that you get the answers to problems…..there is no redundancy. Process engineering is allot of work and is not to be taken for granted. I think AMD has resource issues. Great plans and continued push, but short on people to get the job done. All well said. Also, don't forget in addition, that when your fabs use different Process Equipment, all the above mentioned conditions are magnified. Intel using a copy exactly Process, same tools, same procedures, same everything, allows the Engineer with some sort of excursion to draw on the resources of the "Virtual Factory". "I see a problem..... do you see it too? Have you seen it in the past? What did you do? Can I send you some of my wafers to run on your tools? Can you send me some of yours to try on mine? Let's get everyone on a bridge and brainstorm." This is a big advantage in resolving many of the issues that B2L notes. It's a manufacturing resource advantage, that AMD and their foundry don't have. Semi