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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tejek who wrote (147178)	5/15/2002 11:56:03 AM
From: Tenchusatsu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1584624

Ted, <That means if we formed an army here in WA state.....we could march into OR and have whatever we could get by knocking heads. Right?> Of course. We Oregonians are full of people who want Washingtonians completely eliminated. And we'll do everything in our power to accomplish this, from suicide bombings to using women and children as human shields. After all, didn't Oregon attack Washington first, just like Palestine attacked Israel back in the 1960's? Tenchusatsu

To: tejek who wrote (147178)	5/15/2002 1:11:05 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1584624

Alot of their ancestors where moving in to the area at the same time that the Jewish ancestors where moving in. And then the Jews left. I'm talking about the 19th and early 20th centuries. Not ancient Israel. A lot of the Jews stayed. So what you are saying is that the spoils belong to the strongest even if the weakest happened to be there first. No, but I am saying the strongest are not normally going to end up with the short end of the stick or with anything that increases their possible danger. I am saying that being stronger gives you an advantage. I also would say that both sides have a claim on the land, I'm not sure I agree with you implication that the claim of the Palestinians is stronger. That's the plan and you're falling right into it. They sent 300k settlers into the WB just so they could make such an argument. Its reality. No state is going to want to give up any hope of secure borders or allow almost all of its territory to be in artillery range of a hostile power if it can avoid it. To get any solution a lot of those 300k settlers are going to have to be pushed in to moving, but the densest settlements in the most strategic areas are probably not going away. Israel isn't trying to take the west bank, it already took in in 1967, they are trying to give it up because its too much of a hassle, however they are not going to want to have their country be less then 10 miles across. Palestine is supposed to be a separate and independent state from Israel. The Israelis don't really want that......they want more control that that.......and its bs. I may be nervous about Canada but I don't have the right to enter Canada with my army whenever I want nor should Israel have that right but they want it. Again, its bs. If Israel is attacked it has the right under international law to respond to the attacks. We didn't have any agreement with the Taliban to let us put our army in their country but that didn't stop us when we where attacked. The only way Israel would ever agree to give up the right to hunt down terrorists in the West Bank and Gaza is if the terrorists from these places are no longer a threat. If Canada trained and armed terrorists and then sent them down to attack American targets at some point the 10th mountain division would probably head north from Ft. Drum... If Canada had been a US possession from decades but terrorists from Canada demanded independence we probably would not give it to them while we where still being attacked, and that's with the enormous territory the US has. If our country was 10 or so miles wide then we would be even less likely to give up control. Arafat was given control of large sections of the occupied territories. The result was more chaos and violence then when the Israeli army directly controlled the area. If Arafat could and would have kept a lid on things then he could have built trust, maybe enough for Israelis to seriously consider giving real independence to the Palestinians (without restrictions on sovereignty like Israeli control of all the borders and a right for the Israeli army to intervene at any time). But the violence got worse. Every time the Palestinians have had control of an area or tried to have control of an area (in Jordan, then in Lebanon, now in the West Bank, and Gaza) the violence has increased over the level it was at before they had control. Its a long track record, but Arafat keeps getting second chances, and third chances, and 85th chances. The Israelis don't want suicide bombers but they don't want an independent Palestinian state near them either. Well, you can try to have your cake and eat it too but don't be surprised if it doesn't work out. Why would anyone give a totally independent state to the suicide bombers. Until they have demonstrated that they might show restraint giving complete control of the area to the bombers is just giving them a safe base to use to get their attacks ready. Apparently, the Palestinians are not real okay with the above. That may surprise you but it doesn't surprise me. If the Palestinians are ever going to have their own state they will have to be able to deal with those things. Then can probably get a bit of adjustment of the border but not a big one (it can't be that big because they would have gotten most of the disputed territory and some additional land anyway). What is reasonable to demand is real independence (no Israeli army control of the borders for example), and more control over the water. But if they ask for things like a right of return or control over every single last square inch of the disputed territory then they probably never will get an independent state. If they escalate the violence they will get more Israeli tanks moving in. If they really escalate the violence they may push Israel into combating the PLO the same way Jordan did. Well, once again, if I were the Palestinians, I would be pssed and would 'flip em' the bird.* And every time they have done this things just get worse for them. The Palestinians idea that if they don't like the offer on the table they should just kill some more people until they get every thing they want simply isn't going to work. If you start blowing up civilians as a way to pressure negotiations to go in your favor, eventually your "negotiating partner" will lose their patience and put away many of their moral scruples. If that happens things will get a lot uglier then they are now, but I can't see it not happening if the Palestinians keep up these terrorist attacks. Imagine that bin Laden had some grievance against the US that you accepted as legitimate. Does that mean that after 9/11 we should have set down and negotiated with him instead of destroying his infrastructure in Afghanistan. I don't think so. Throughout human history, when the aspirations and freedoms of a society are denied, that society usually will revolt. The longer it is kept in check, the more frustration that builds and the more violent the revolt. I'm not sure "freedoms" is a good word in this context. They would not have much freedom under Arafat or any of his likely successors. History has shown that you usually can't negotiate with people who say give us exactly what we want or we will start killing. Often you just have to kill them, or kill enough of them to make them act more reasonably. I hope it doesn't come to that because it could take a lot of Palestinian deaths. The have the most developed infrastructure because they developed this infrastructure. BS. The Israelis may have improved upon the infrastructure but originally Haifa and Jaffa were Arab ports. And they where greatly expanded and developed by Israel. Tel Aviv was pretty much created by the Jewish settlers. Most of the development in Israel sans west bank and gaza was done by the Jews. "That what does Israel get by talking to Arafat?" Not control over the Hamas, that's for sure. If the violence will continue during the negotiations and with almost any possible result from the negotiations then Israel has no incentive to negotiate. Sheik Ammin... He says when the occupied territories are no longer occupied and Palestine is a free state, then and only then will the suicide bombers stop. He is on record as considering the occupied territory to be all of Israel/Palestine. Tim