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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/9/2002 8:39:38 PM
From: Thomas A Watson	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

pbase.com I'm still uploading pics. Yesterday Ship110 organized a gam. We had Sea Scouts from Eight Ships attend. Later picture will show some of the several activities. But the reverence of the opening ceremony was great sight. tom watson tosiwmee

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/9/2002 9:03:44 PM
From: Kevin Rose	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 769670

Well written post. I agree that children need some moral compass as a means of making decisions as adults. However, I disagree that this moral training must be religious. We are raising our children with a non-religious moral code, and they haven't ax murdered anyone yet... Seriously, I agree with the intent, but not the means (as the sole means). I believe the key problem is not secularity, but irresponsible parents. Parents need to take the responsibility to instruct their children as to what is right and wrong. Unfortunately, in a media-intensive world, there are plenty of negative examples. Crooked politicians, egotistical sports superstars, corrupt businessmen, immoral religious leaders. With all these negative examples, many of whom receive a lot of media attention. Today's problems are simply more complex than before. Religious tolerance, for example, was rarely necessary in many parts of the country, where Christianity prevailed. Jews and member of other religions had their own communities that were often deliberately segregated. Races were separated, and rarely mingled. The problem of intolerance was not nearly as much of an issue years ago, because of these isolations. To say that America is becoming less moral is, in my opinion, incorrect. We simply have a different set of challenges and lessons to teach. Religious and racial tolerance has increased dramatically in that last 50 years. We are of course too old to remember, but there were regular racial and religious lynchings in America, as well as deadly race riots. Outside of much less deadly flareups (e.g. LA riots), people today are much more tolerant of differences in their fellow man. I agree that there are many more 'gray' areas than before. But, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Instead of the old black and white standards (e.g. blacks sit at the back of the bus, period), there are now more complex issues (e.g. should a child from a disadvantaged background get some assistance in catching up). As a child raised in CA, we spent summers in Alabama. Not being from the area, we were stunned by the intolerance. Restrooms labeled Men, Women, and Colored. White Only drinking fountains. Relatives complaining about the 'uppity niggers'. Today, there is much more equality and tolerance between the races. In my book, that is a more 'moral' society. The age of communication opens our children up to a lot of evil influences. Pedophiles, drugs, underage drinking, premarital sex, etc, are more likely to come into our children's view than before. As parents, we need to deal with a new set of challenges. Whether you instill the moral compass by teaching the Bible, Torah, Koran, or common sense, is immaterial. But it is the most important task a parent has.

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/9/2002 10:06:33 PM
From: Charles Tutt	Respond to of 769670

I think Kevin already did a pretty good job of responding to what as I see as your sincere attempt to present your position and to understand the counterpoint without resorting to inflammatory rants. I commend you for it. I think religion can be a positive influence. But to single out one religion or group of religions and throw the awesome power of the state behind it seems to me to be a big mistake that our great country has somehow managed to avoid, with varying degrees of success, for over 200 years. I'm not a fanatic on the issue, except when I perceive opposing fanaticism. I am disgusted at the way in which Islam has been perverted by some for their own political ends, but I am convinced that in response we should not drift from the principle of separation of church and state. In fact, I think the evil being associated with Islam stems from the failure of others to separate the two. I think there's a big difference between religion and organized religion. Charles Tutt (SM)

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/9/2002 10:50:02 PM
From: ManyMoose	Respond to of 769670

Very well said. I don't have the patience to construct such a comprehensive argument, but you did beautifully. Let me see if I can explain what I am trying to say a bit better.

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/9/2002 10:56:15 PM
From: bonnuss_in_austin	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

Looks like a 'cut & paste,' Michael D. Cummings. LOL. Let's all get on the 'buss,' after all ... bia

To: greenspirit who wrote (262429)	6/10/2002 2:33:07 AM
From: MSI	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 769670

Check what the media has been telling us in the past 40 years, as another approach to understanding the change in our collective mental models. The media has been contaminated with covert operatives for just about exactly that length of time. Sure, that may just be a coincidence. But to take the conspiratorial POV for a moment, it is useful to constantly subvert American peacetime values if your purpose is to foment greater war budgets. Contented Americans don't make war. If your media focuses daily on greater violence, less moral character, greater fear and base emotions can be aroused, and the electorate can be more easily persuaded into an aggressive militant direction. Another reason to publicize the previously-mentioned O'Hair, with her combined beliefs of the all-powerful central government, and submission of the individual to the state, rather than to a higher philosophy. Perfect fascist messages. Just a thought...