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To: axial who wrote (9866)	6/20/2002 11:11:33 AM
From: Montana Wildhack	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 14101

Jim, I'm not commenting on the individuals and their own pain either from physical issues or psychological ones such as your and Joe's relatives or my own mother whose serious operations and pain have been blamed on NSAID's by the specialists. The psychological reference is to the people who suffer also but not from direct physical cause and effect. I am saying though that the behaviour you refer to is witnessed throughout history in most documentation. That is humanity spends part of its time accomplishing great things that seem to seperate us from the other animals; but, we also spend a lot of time touching ourselves and coveting our neighbours' what-have-you. There is no doubt in my mind that the liberals have lead us away from the brink of third world status through some serious committment to fiscal responsibility - just as there is no doubt in my mind that Jean's time has passed and he hangs on now like grim death. It is the human plight. Jean does not see things as many Canadians now do and cannot distinguish his interference with Mr Mills in Ottawa with the nepotism so common in small dictatorships. If questioned, HC will argue passionately that it is working hard without sufficient resources. They will believe this with all their hearts and minds. The alternatives are equally appalling. Facism's extreme tactics and lifeless fanaticism for instance. Or communism and its ultimate hollow core where 'for the people by the people' kills all passion. There aren't any long term solutions because we have met the enemy and they are us. From the teenager flipping burgers dreaming of the next social encounter to the scientist working at unlocking a key regardless of social consequences to the police forces that by their nature draw sadists to them - we are doomed in our lives and institutions to be ruled by our nature. Human nature is ruled by self interest and the sufficiency of how we see ourselves, what we have and want, and how we believe we are perceived by others. Below every dutch clean, neat as a pin surface is fear and doubt. If this sounds gloomy it is not. I will give one example. 50 years ago the globe was on the brink of destruction. If you think that's overstated listen to the argument. For 10,000 years (using the city states of Ur, Uruk, etc as the baseline) humans overwhelming preoccupation was with empire building. Kill your neighbour take their stuff and their land. Every student of history knows this is true. This continued unabated until the faceoff between the USA and the USSR with some 10,000 nuclear weapons between them. Sufficient to radiate every square kilometer of the earth several times over. For the first time in 10 milleniums, both sides backed off and the biggest single empire building opportunity was not pursued. Assured mutual destruction ended the longest preoccupation in history for the most powerful. In the same century that technology and information exploded. The small fry continue in their frothy and useless pursuits, but, the preoccupation of the powerful changed in the 20th century. The USA is too smart to let anyone catch up and their presidents will continue to push their weight around as they see fit. This is not the same as killing your neighbours en masse. The world has changed. Where we go is not clear. Because human nature did not change. We need more of what has always added the value to life along the whole timeline. Advocates who get involved for principles (religion is not a principle it is a dogma). Sharing is a principle. Thanks Joe and Jim for one of those moments. Wolf

To: axial who wrote (9866)	6/20/2002 1:18:27 PM
From: arizzzona	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 14101

Jim, can I pay for your mom's Pennsaid? <<I seem to have unintentionally created the impression that I was asking for his help>> Jim, you in no way were asking for Joe's help. I kinda stepped into your business when I saw a DMX connection. Joe has a bottle in his medicine cabinet awaiting a sports injury that we hope never comes, all the while your mom lives in pain, her life ruined. How could I, with good conscience, not say anything? I couldn't. But I still feel a bit odd stepping into your personal business. Since you've been so selfless helping me and others learn about the benefits of Pennsaid, I thought maybe I could say "thanks" by picking up the cost of a bottle for your mom. Joe, I have a check here written out in your name for $45. I'm not sure how American bank account cheques work up there, but it's yours. One condition though, Jim, about your mom's Pennsaid: You have to give us recovery updates. <<My mother is in a similar situation, her life ruined by two failed spinal fusion operations, after an auto accident. She is bed-bound, clinically depressed, and miserable. She lives with pain, and the effects of almost 20 years of ingesting NSAIDS.>> I really hope this helps. -AZ