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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (52564)	7/7/2002 2:10:37 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 82486

Actually that kind of behavior is observed in other animals. They will even do it for non-kin animals. It is frequently older females that exhibit these types of altruistic behaviors. There are many papers on animal altruism.

To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (52564)	7/7/2002 8:11:08 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Your issue seems to be evolving. You started with this: <<It's the whole mind set, Karen. Christians have on auto-pilot the whole mind set that there is a life to follow this one, a reuniting with those departed, some meaning to the life lived lived on earth...There has got to be something beyond rationality and logic to give me a motive. Some higher ideal, some higher purpose. And these move you toward "religion.">> And moved on to this: <<I agree with you that there is an instinct within most of us to do the right thing. I agree that sometimes the "right thing" comes down to literally giving up our own lives to save those of others. It is not hypothetical, it happens often enough to people of all beliefs and persuasions...BUT WHERE DOES THIS INSTINCT COME FROM?>> My answer to that is "beats me." Immediately followed by "what does it matter?" There are two different contexts for why it might matter. The first is how it might influence the behavior of the individual facing an occasion for ultimate sacrifice. The second is the broader one of how it might influence our belief systems, whether of not we believe in God. I'll dispose of the latter quickly in the usual way--we all believe or not for our own individual reasons and how people make sacrifices is part of that equation--and go back to the first context. It seems to me that there are three factors involved in any choice we might make to perform such a sacrifice. The first is whether or not we deem whatever we are trying to save as worth our lives or not. Each of us would rate any scenario differently. I've already spoken of the fate of humanity and my country as of greater value than my life. Also, perhaps, the lives of a group of children. Would I rate the life of any one individual more valuable than my own? Probably not. If I had children, though, I probably would. There are promos on TV now about a movie about code talkers and the importance of the protagonist protecting one of them from capture with his life. I concur with that, but not for the life of the individual code talker but for the success of the war effort. In a hostage situation, I might assess my life less valuable than the only one amongst us with the skills to extricate the group from mortal danger. We all have our own individual hierarchies of what is or isn't worth giving up one's life for. You and I have talked about 50's sci fi movies. I watched a lot of them as a kid. I also watched a lot of WWII movies. In those movies, the hero was always risking his life to save the country or to save humanity from aliens. Perhaps those movies were a primary influence in my own hierarchy of values. Who knows. I just know we all have such a hierarchy, although some may have given more thought to it than others. Some may have their hierarchy influenced by belief in God and others by sci fi movies and still others by both. We are all individuals with our own unique set of influences. The second factor is whether or not we have the competence to successfully make the sacrifice. I must admit that my skill set for such scenarios is paltry. I am not Jackie Joyner Kersee or Martina Navratilova let alone Shaq. I lack the quickness or the agility or strength to overpower much of anyone. I have no training in such things. Judo classes maybe 35 years ago are not much use. Unless I could sneak up behind the bad guy and hit him over the head with a brick or shoot him, there wouldn't be much I could do. Note that neither the brick nor the shot would require the sacrifice of my life. We all have different capabilities for being effective in such situations. Mine are quite limited and I know it. That makes me an unlikely hero. The third factor is whether we would have the courage to act knowing it meant the loss of our lives. How does anyone ever know that until the situation arises? I've done some brave things in my life, but never was my life at risk. I'd like to think I would act bravely and do what I judged to be the right thing, but who knows if I would take action or not take action and feel guilty the rest of my life. It seems to me this third factor is where religion fits in. It might be easier to find the courage to make the sacrifice if one had a belief in an afterlife. But not having that belief would hardly obviate taking such action.