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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Lane3 who wrote (52569)7/7/2002 10:24:51 AM
From: J. C. Dithers  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 82486
 
You make a brave effort to link self-sacrifice with rationality and reason ...

but in the end it leaves me unconvinced. Even for the religious believer, self-sacrifice simply is not a rational act. If the believer sacrificed her life in a calculated effort to obtain favor from god, it would become a contrived act not worthy of reward. I think people who believe in god intuitively realize this; that actions motivated by self-aggrandizement would defeat their own purpose in the eyes of an all-knowing god. So I would not argue that I (believer) have any better reason than you (non-believer) to perform the ultimate act of altruism.

Where we approach consensus seems to lie in the metaphysical realm of "Higher Purpose" or "Higher Values," expressions used by you and/or X. These appear to be the origin of the instinct to do the right thing, which you explore as well as I. For me, a religious belief system such as Christianity may give these noble ideals some measure of form and substance, yet they do not provide a rationale for selfless acts, inasmuch as that rationale would be self-serving, and thus self-defeating in terms of expectation of eternal rewards. For you, you come to a hierarchy of values, wherein there are some things more important than your own life, such as the fate of country or humanity. You imply, I think, that how you have come to believe in that hierarchy is not as important as the fact that you have come to it.

I relate very much to your mention of the old movies. For our (more or less) generation, movies were a significant influence on the formation of our values. The John Wayne-type hero, unblemished, pure of heart, giving up his life time and again for his fellows or his country, was a powerful inspiration. There was nothing "religious" about it at all. It was courage, duty, honor, nobility ... and it touched something within us that said "this is right, this is what I want to be, this is what gives meaning to a life."

The only point I can see here is that both of us find something existing within us that is larger than our own existence. Whatever it is, and wherever it came from, I don't think it can be reached, or touched, or explained through logic or reason. Whether we call it an instinct, an urge, a feeling, a subliminal perception ... it seems to exist in all humans of normal mind.

Those of us curious enough to search for its meaning and origin come to divergent answers. Much, probably most, of humanity are drawn to religious explanations, and God enters the picture. God may be one or many, may be personalized or simply an unknown cosmic force. I don't see why it should seem irrational for many to explain one unknown by means of another unknown.

To use your expression .... metaphysics is damn hard to get your head around (sigh).

I don't know about you, but I personally don't think we are arguing here. If we are ... I have no desire to win (ggg)



To: Lane3 who wrote (52569)7/7/2002 1:46:01 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
Karen, I think this article is applicable to much you have been discussing:

PART 1

theatlantic.com

PART 2

theatlantic.com

Part 2 also includes interesting material on the Origins of Religions. This shows the genetic roots and advantages for mysticism. Here is an excerpt:

"THE same reasoning that aligns ethical philosophy with science can also inform the study of religion. Religions are analogous to organisms. They have a life cycle. They are born, they grow, they compete, they reproduce, and, in the fullness of time, most die. In each of these phases religions reflect the human organisms that nourish them. They express a primary rule of human existence: Whatever is necessary to sustain life is also ultimately biological.

Successful religions typically begin as cults, which then increase in power and inclusiveness until they achieve tolerance outside the circle of believers. At the core of each religion is a creation myth, which explains how the world began and how the chosen people -- those subscribing to the belief system -- arrived at its center. Often a mystery, a set of secret instructions and formulas, is available to members who have worked their way to a higher state of enlightenment. The medieval Jewish cabala, the trigradal system of Freemasonry, and the carvings on Australian aboriginal spirit sticks are examples of such arcana. Power radiates from the center, gathering converts and binding followers to the group. Sacred places are designated, where the gods can be importuned, rites observed, and miracles witnessed.

The devotees of the religion compete as a tribe with those of other religions. They harshly resist the dismissal of their beliefs by rivals. They venerate self-sacrifice in defense of the religion.

The tribalistic roots of religion are similar to those of moral reasoning and may be identical. Religious rites, such as burial ceremonies, are very old. It appears that in the late Paleolithic period in Europe and the Middle East bodies were sometimes placed in shallow graves, accompanied by ocher or blossoms; one can easily imagine such ceremonies performed to invoke spirits and gods. But, as theoretical deduction and the evidence suggest, the primitive elements of moral behavior are far older than Paleolithic ritual. Religion arose on a foundation of ethics, and it has probably always been used in one manner or another to justify moral codes.

The formidable influence of the religious drive is based on far more, however, than just the validation of morals. A great subterranean river of the mind, it gathers strength from a broad spread of tributary emotions. Foremost among them is the survival instinct. "Fear," as the Roman poet Lucretius said, "was the first thing on earth to make the gods." Our conscious minds hunger for a permanent existence. If we cannot have everlasting life of the body, then absorption into some immortal whole will serve. Anything will serve, as long as it gives the individual meaning and somehow stretches into eternity that swift passage of the mind and spirit lamented by Saint Augustine as the short day of time.

The understanding and control of life is another source of religious power. Doctrine draws on the same creative springs as science and the arts, its aim being the extraction of order from the mysteries and tumult of the material world. To explain the meaning of life it spins mythic narratives of the tribal history, populating the cosmos with protective spirits and gods. The existence of the supernatural, if accepted, testifies to the existence of that other world so desperately desired.

Religion is also mightily empowered by its principal ally, tribalism. The shamans and priests implore us, in somber cadence, Trust in the sacred rituals, become part of the immortal force, you are one of us. As your life unfolds, each step has mystic significance that we who love you will mark with a solemn rite of passage, the last to be performed when you enter that second world, free of pain and fear.

If the religious mythos did not exist in a culture, it would quickly be invented, and in fact it has been invented everywhere, thousands of times through history. Such inevitability is the mark of instinctual behavior in any species, which is guided toward certain states by emotion-driven rules of mental development. To call religion instinctive is not to suppose that any particular part of its mythos is untrue -- only that its sources run deeper than ordinary habit and are in fact hereditary, urged into existence through biases in mental development that are encoded in the genes.

Such biases are a predictable consequence of the brain's genetic evolution. The logic applies to religious behavior, with the added twist of tribalism. There is a hereditary selective advantage to membership in a powerful group united by devout belief and purpose. Even when individuals subordinate themselves and risk death in a common cause, their genes are more likely to be transmitted to the next generation than are those of competing groups who lack comparable resolve.

The mathematical models of population genetics suggest the following rule in the evolutionary origin of such altruism: If the reduction in survival and reproduction of individuals owing to genes for altruism is more than offset by the increased probability of survival of the group owing to the altruism, then altruism genes will rise in frequency throughout the entire population of competing groups. To put it as concisely as possible: the individual pays, his genes and tribe gain, altruism spreads."