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Politics : World Affairs Discussion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Thomas M. who wrote (1338)	8/7/2002 1:35:24 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (5) \| Respond to of 3959

Good stuff? Equating Israel's racist Jewish regime with a democratic Europe borders on the twilight zone. If Gustave's theory were true, then the "fascist" Europeans would have blocked all Moslem immigration to Europe. Islam's (with their Jewish allies) aggression against Christian Europe goes back to the seventh century. They invaded Christian territories of North Africa, Jerusalem, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Sicily, Jerusalem, (modern Turkey), the Balkans and Greece. All of these territories had been converted to Christianity by persuasion and not by force. It was only after more than three centuries of aggression against these Christian communities that the besieged European Christian community began to fight back against the fanaticism of the Moslem-Jewish occupation. The Jews aided the Arab invasion in every campaign against Christian territories. When the Seljuk Turks converted to Islam, the campaign against Byzantium alarmed the Byzantine Emperor and he requested help from Urban II. In 1095 Urban gave his famous speech at Clermon Ferrand and called Western Christendom to take up arms and liberate the Holy Land. It was not a crusade for forced conversion but a crusade to defend besieged Christianity from centuries of external Moslem aggression and an internal Jewish alliance with the Moslems. Spain was not liberated from the Moslem/Jewish occupation until 1492. When you consider the violent and aggressive history of Islam, Gustav and his Moslem brothers should be happy that they are even allowed to live in civilized Christians nations. Christian Europe's historical memory has been attenuated by two centuries of Jewish/pagan propaganda. The only reason Jews and Moslems break the doors down to immigrate into European/Christian nations is because they recognize the superior justice, morality and freedom that Christian societies in Europe and America provide. Gustave's monotonous reference to all European nations as fascist states is simply self-serving socialist/Moslem propaganda. The norm for Christian societies has been conversion through persuasion and justice and morality for all citizens. In contrast, the norm in Moslem societies has always been coercion and brutality. Why is it that Jews, Moslems and pagans always use the exceptions and abnormalities when criticizing two thousand years of Christian history? On the other hand, when they look at Moslem history, they avoid the norm of aggression, coercion, and brutality, and focus instead on the exceptional periods where a few benevolent Moslem leaders showed signs of justice and compassion to Christians? Good stuff? I would say foolish, irrational, ahistorical and self-serving stuff!

To: Thomas M. who wrote (1338)	8/8/2002 3:28:25 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 3959

An interesting interview.... `Most Israelis Are Combatants' A key Hamas official discusses his organization's policy on killing civilians and how it will respond to Israel's latest Gaza strike [...] NEWSWEEK: What kind of understanding was Hamas hoping to achieve with the Israelis? Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi: We suggested an initiative that if the Israeli Zionists stop their attacks on civilians, we were prepared to stop our martyrdom [suicide] attacks. Among our conditions was the demand that Israel release all Palestinian prisoners and pull troops out of the West Bank and Gaza. Where does the initiative stand now? We saw what Sharon's response was. But you were ready to call off attacks so the two sides could talk? We don't believe that if we stop attacks an agreement will ensue. But we were ready to do it to show the Arab countries that we're not the problem. You shared a prison cell with Salah Shehada. What was he like? We were in prison together in the same cell in 1995 and 1996 ... He was very strong physically, very tough in difficult situations. What was he convicted of? He was convicted of belonging to the military wing of Hamas, but he never confessed to it. Was he the leader of the military wing of Hamas? Yes, but only in Gaza. That means Shehada oversaw all the attacks in Gaza? I would think so, based on his title. Your group was outraged by Israel's killing of women and children in the bombing this week, but Shehada himself engineered attacks against civilians. We are targeting soldiers but sometimes civilians get killed. We always try to limit ourselves to attacking soldiers. Look at the percentage of Israeli soldiers killed in the fighting-it's more than 50 percent. I'm speaking about statistics, not imaginary things. Combatants are not just people who wear uniforms. What do you mean? How does Hamas define civilians? An Israeli civilian is someone who never took part in the fighting. If he participated in the fighting in the past, years ago, he is not a civilian. That's why Israelis are still pursuing the Germans who took part in the Holocaust, though some of these people are in their 80s. They are still considered soldiers. So you consider all Israeli men combatants because they at one time or another served in the army and do reserve duty? Yes. What about Israeli women? Most Israeli women served in the army. According to these criteria, what percentage of the Israeli population do you consider combatants? The majority. We choose military targets. If civilians are liable to die, that isn't a reason to stop the attack. But we don't set out to kill civilians. That reasoning sounds like what Israelis are saying about the bomb that killed Shehada as well as women and children. Our formula is different. According to their logic, it's enough for there to be one fighter in a neighborhood to justifying dropping the bomb. Israel appears to have benefited from information provided by collaborators for the attacks. What kind of evidence has your group unearthed on this? We figured out who the collaborator must have been and we were about to put our hands on him, but the Palestinian intelligence arrested him first. I can't say much about it. Was he a member of Hamas? No. But I believe that the Israelis gave him pictures of Sheik Salah and briefed him about him. He was following Sheik Salah. How did you figure out who it was? A few minutes before the bomb fell, a man spoke on the phone near Sheik Salah's house and said something about Salah Shehada. Someone overheard him talking on the phone and after the blast put the two things together. This person came to us and told us about it. What should be done with this man, the collaborator? According to Islamic law, he should be put to death. How many collaborators are there among Palestinians? We don't have numbers, but in 35 years of occupation, Israel managed to recruit many. We're a conservative society, and that gives Israel the opportunity to blackmail people, especially youngsters, 14- or 15-year-olds. They set them up in compromising situations and then take pictures or a video. They tell these people that if they don't cooperate, the video will be distributed publicly. You mean sex videos? Yes. Are there collaborators inside Hamas? I don't think so. I don't think it's possible for someone from the outside to infiltrate. Why not? The collaborator would be unable to fast like us and to pray like us. He wouldn't have the kind of awareness we have of religious law and Islamic values. © 2002 Newsweek, Inc. msnbc.com

To: Thomas M. who wrote (1338)	8/8/2002 1:20:42 PM
From: Brumar89	Respond to of 3959

It is strange that you consider Gus's article "good stuff". The article Gus posted said of Arabs: European Arabs are linked by national, religious, and frequently family ties to a region hostile to Europe and waging a demographic war against it for 540 years. and they are always placed in a dilemma between their legal obligation to observe the law and the moral injunction that obligates them to identify themselves with their Muslim brothers and with the Arab world. They are required to display loyalty to both warring sides simultaneously, far from a simple task. Do you agree with Gus that the Arab world is hostile to Europe and is waging a war against it? And that Arabs living in Western countries have double loyalties? If so, then it's not at all surprising that the EU has regarded them as a security risk. The only surprise is that Gus or you should think there's something wrong with that.