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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: FaultLine who wrote (38503)	8/18/2002 8:44:52 PM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I dunno, F/L, D.Long's argument about his ancestor's move to Boston deserving sympathy is pretty persuasive. I'm sympathetic.... for what the Bostonians had to endure! (Hold on! That was a good-natured zinger intended to tweak and tease, not flame.) In defense of his position, my relatives have spoken of the NINA signs they endured (No Irish Need Apply), as well as open physical hostility. I don't think it's as bad as what African Americans endured. But I do think some reasonableness does need to be applied in discussions of reparations. In much of the US, black slavery never existed, for example. In other places, blacks held darker skinned blacks as slaves. Should Irish descendants, most of whom arrived in America in the last 15 years of legal slavery, pay reparations for something that probably very few (if any) took part in? I favor reparations and as part of the Great Melting Pot, recognize that all team members pay the dues that were caused by the actions of the few. Yet I think it fair, in the search for a just resolution, that all the available facts be on the table, to promote greater racial and historical understanding. (And D. Long? Hope you didn't take my zinger personally. I just can't resist an opening that wide, which you provided.)

To: FaultLine who wrote (38503)	8/18/2002 10:14:12 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The Civil War hardly ended the subjugation of the Blacks in American and it's foolish to think so. FL.. This is a touchy topic, but let's not fail to realize that before blacks migrated from plantations (as freed slaves) to the cities, those ghettoes were inhabitied by the Irish and other immigrants. lib.niu.edu And then there were the Chinese who came to work under almost slavelike conditions on the railroads. And then there were the Italians, Sicilians, and many other ethnicities.... All of them spent time in the urban ghettoes of the early US, suffering similar degradation as blacks. In fact, the Irish were considered lower than blacks by many Anglo-American, especially given the historic strife and alien Gaelic language. They were forced to do the absolute dirtiest and most dangerous tasks, such as working in coal mines. As for reparations, white caucasians were certainly not the first to practice slavery. The Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, and Muslims widely practice Slavery. In fact, the word Slave derives from the involuntary servitude of various slavic tribes. wikipedia.com But these reparations folks don't seem to have named any African governments in their lawsuit. Funny that!! After all, most of these slaves were sold into such condition by African kings (some still holding power) who sold their conquered foes into slavery, instead of slaying the men and integrating the women into their own tribes. But then again, maybe, in a very ironic and twisted manner of logic, the descendants of MALE slaves, who were captured warriors) should be paying restitution to the slave traders who saved them from almost certain death at the hands of their African captors. There are NO clean hands in the history of the slave trade. But there are too many folks ignoring the CURRENT slavery going on in Africa and the Middle East, and seeking to absolve their OWN ancestors from selling each other's tribes off into slavery. Hawk