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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (299633)9/24/2002 9:59:25 AM
From: TigerPaw  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670
 
For the most part, the imperial powers were trying to supply a lack in the territories they conquered or annexed.
nytimes.com

First, the experience of the Spanish-American War should remind us that quick conventional military victory is not necessarily the end of the story. Thanks to American technological superiority, Adm. George Dewey destroyed a Spanish fleet in Manila Bay without losing a single man. But a clean, high-tech war against Spain somehow turned into an extremely dirty war against the Filipino resistance, one in which hundreds of thousands of civilians died.

Second, America's imperial venture should serve as an object warning against taking grand strategic theories too seriously. The doctrines of the day saw colonies as strategic assets. In the end, it's very doubtful whether our control of the Philippines made us stronger. Now we're assured that military action against rogue states will protect us from terrorism. But the rogue state now in our sights doesn't seem to have been involved in Sept. 11; what determines whose regime gets changed?

Finally, we should remember that the economic doctrines that were used to justify Western empire-building during the late 19th century — that colonies would provide valuable markets and sources of raw materials — turned out to be nonsense. Almost without exception, the cost of acquiring and defending a colonial empire greatly exceeded even a generous accounting of its benefits. These days, pundits tell us that a war with Iraq will drive down oil prices, and maybe even yield a financial windfall. But the effect on oil prices is anything but certain, while the heavy costs of war, occupation and rebuilding — for we won't bomb Iraq, then wash our hands of responsibility, will we? — are not in doubt. And no, the United States cannot defray the costs of war out of Iraqi oil revenue — not unless we are willing to confirm to the world that we're just old-fashioned imperialists, after all.



To: Neocon who wrote (299633)9/25/2002 9:54:36 AM
From: Rock_nj  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670
 
There is no such "big picture". Most corporate executives want peace and prosperity throughout the world, because that enables them to make secure investments and develop new markets. Trade is a relatively peaceful pursuit. Lenin's tale of the greedy capitalists using government to promote imperialist exploitation doesn't quite capture what happened in the 18th and 19th century.

I respectfully disagree Neocon. I have to say that it's nice to have a decent and thought-provoking discussion with someone on the other side of the political fence. You have a lot of good things to say and say them in an eloquent manner. There are way too many people on both sides who shoot from the hip and really don't have anything worthwhile to say, because they are ignorant. You definitely aren't one of them.

Regarding the "big picture". The people who stage coups, support repressive regimes and even cause wars. The people I'm referring to are the super-wealthy. Many of them aren't CEOs, they own the companies. The Rockerfellers of the world. The people who are part of the Council on Foreign Relations. These are the people who lobbied the Nixon Administration to have the CIA destablize and eventually overthrow Allende in Chile (BTW, the CEOs of ITT and Pepsi were among those lobbying the Nixon Administration because Allende's government threatened their businesses). The CEO of the United Fruit Company lobbied the Eisenhower Admin to stage a coup in Guatemala when the government threatened to take their land. That coup led to a bloody civil war that has taken 100,000s of lives over the last 5 decades. These are not conspiracies, they are true historical events that occured for a reason. Because the interests of some very wealthy and powerful people were at stake. That is how the world operates in my eyes. That is the "big picture". World events like coups and even wars don't just happen for no reason. There's always some big players behind them.