To: Lane3 who wrote (60853 ) 10/3/2002 11:15:06 AM From: Neocon Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 82486 I have no idea why this is so difficult. I said at the outset that morality is a set of ideas by which society governs its members, and that we internalize these values and precepts in order to become moral persons. I said that we can improve upon what is given to some extent through education and reflection, particularly by clarifying reasons to dissent, in whole or in part, from the practices of one's society, though in terms that are intelligible within that context. I said that as society evolves in various ways, there is a change in morality, and that the better the society, in terms of providing increasing numbers opportunities to live in a more "humanized" environment, the better its morality, even if there are still blemishes. I said that there was a hypothetical point where the process would end, and we would reach "moral objectivity", that is, the best set of values underpinning the optimum society. I said that even were we not there, we were in a position to judge ourselves superior to most other societies in history, and therefore to consider our values the best available now. Asked about how I related this to my belief in God, I said that to the extent God intervenes in history, it is within the limitations of the people He is dealing with, and that therefore, even giving the Bible some credence, one has to understand that it is told from a primitive point of view. I also noted that, of course, I thought any intervention would be to push us in the direction of social improvement, with the eventual goal of reaching the best society. However, I never even intimated that we get values directly from God, or that we had a pipeline to Him as arbiter, so I don't know what you are talking about. As I said, I am starting with moral empiricism: this is the way that people gain morality, by internalizing values they are taught by their parents, teachers, and other sources of social authority. The source of duty is the expectation imposed upon one by society. Since one internalizes these standards, if one falls short, one feels guilt or shame. Even defensiveness is premised upon feeling guilt or shame, and trying to combat it. However, sometimes one dissents on a basis which makes sense within the moral framework given, either in limited cases or overall. This is the first origin of moral criticism, with the chance of improvement. Additionally, the society adapts its values to new situations, finding by experience what works better to make it dynamic and successful. Finally, philosophers and other thinkers reflect on the basis and character of ethics, and contribute various insights, which may be used to further improve a society. In one sense, you are the arbiter of duty, in your own case. In another sense, society is the final arbiter, over time......