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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (60857)	10/3/2002 11:31:35 AM
From: average joe	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

I said at the outset that morality is a set of ideas by which society governs its members, and that we internalize these values and precepts in order to become moral persons. Moral persons? Not all of us accept the concept of original sin... That is the most ludicrous statement you have ever made. People are not born guilty, they only feel guilty over time by the "claim, blame and shame" game you are advocating. If you really believed in God you would realize that people are born moral persons. It appears you are using your concept of God to promote the ideas of Frederick Skinner.

To: Neocon who wrote (60857)	10/3/2002 11:48:42 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

OK. So the source is the status quo, society's sense of morality at any given time, having evolved. The arbiter is the individual, in particular, and society, in general. And we have a "duty" to conform to that status quo, more or less, by virtue of the fact that we were born into it, and to apologize to interested parties whenever we fall short. Yes? This duty, this obligation, we have because our society's morality has evolved such that it has defined morality to include this obligation. How am I doing? Would it be fair to say, then, that society could continue to evolve such that it eliminates this obligation? Is that theoretically possible or is duty so intrinsic to morality that there would be no more morality without it? Could morality survive if society were to shift into my self-interest model?

To: Neocon who wrote (60857)	10/3/2002 1:58:55 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Are you familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development? If you aren't, you ought to look them up. I think you would enjoy reading him.

To: Neocon who wrote (60857)	10/7/2002 3:45:33 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"Asked about how I related this to my belief in God, I said that to the extent God intervenes in history, it is within the limitations of the people He is dealing with, and that therefore, even giving the Bible some credence, one has to understand that it is told from a primitive point of view. I also noted that, of course, I thought any intervention would be to push us in the direction of social improvement, with the eventual goal of reaching the best society" Makes no sense. We have primitive societies in modern times: societies which dab blood on their ears and digits--and rattle in mumbo jumbo. Is this the same God? Why would the definitive words of God be the silly stuff about spattering blood around...while the true progress of man came from the Listers, the Pasteurs, and so forth? Why do modern tribes still get told to mumbo and to spatter blood instead of using antibiotics? We can show them a better way. Why could not God?? 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Anyone who ever intervened in history in a decent way was not the scalliwag you have been referring to...