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To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/11/2002 12:14:21 AM
From: Jamey  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Stan, very good point. I had never thought of Abraham and Sarah in that way. "That is because God did not want them born of the will of flesh, or of bloods (noble lineage) or the will of man; but waited until Abraham was infertile (dead) as Sarah already was. Then and only then, would God prove Himself through them by bringing into existence a race through a miracle son, Isaac. Unlike Ishmael, who was born of the will of the flesh from the still fertile Abraham and fertile Hagar, Isaac proves the exclusive power of Yahweh who could bring something from nothing as only a Creator could. It is only from such a race that the Messiah could rightly come."

Of course we differ in that I believe that there is only one path to God. Christianity. The believing Jews were already part of the Kingdom, Gentiles being grafted in.



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/11/2002 3:28:17 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
"bringing into existence a race"

Was Isaac of the race of Abraham? He was the son of promise because he carried the faith of Abraham, not becacuse of the genes of Abraham. It was also ordained of God that Isaac marry Rebekkah who was NOT of the genes of Abraham. Rebekkah and Isaac had two genetic (or racial) sons. The twins were of the same genetics of Abraham but one lacked the faith of Abraham. Is your racial theories were correct, then Esau would have had equal rights to the "racial" promises because, as you said in your false theory, he was part of the "race brought forth". But Esau, the PURE genetic (racial) son of Abraham was excluded from the promises because he lacked the faith of Abraham.

Consequently, your racial theory that God established a people of race is wrong. God established a people of faith.
Abraham was the father of that faith.



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/12/2002 11:01:44 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Respond to of 39621
 
"and bring them to the Lord in Jerusalem"

This has already been fulfilled when the remnant of Jews accept Jesus in the first century and formed the Christian Church. The first Christians were almost exclusively Jewish for the first generation. The Jewish Apostles and disciples then converted multitudes of Jewish priests and other Jews after the destruction of the Second Temple. These Jews then went forth and converted the whole world to Christ--it continues to this day. This is the fulfillment of the prophecies you referenced above.

Why are you trying to fulfill these prophecies again through the antichrist Jews of today who worship Satan and have NO relationship to the Jesus or the faith of Abraham?

As for as: "promises their nation that they should rule all the other nations of the earth"
It comes directly from the Talmudic teachings of the antichrist rabbis and NOT from the bible. These modern rabbis have falsely interpreted scriptures to give Jews worldly power. You are simply following the teachings of the antichrist rather than the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/12/2002 11:17:24 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
"God's plan for national Israel will not be forever overturned"

God's plan for "national Israel" has long been completed and fulfilled in the first century by Jesus the Christ. Fleshly Israel, like the fleshly tabernacle, was a type overshadowing the reality of the Church. Now that we have the reality, why are you trying to return to the shadow of the reality, the flesh of the Jews.

This a rabbinical doctrine from the Talmud that emphasizes the race of the Jews over the faith of Abraham and the Messiah Jesus!



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/13/2002 4:46:35 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
The errors of Christian-Zionism!

"Remember that the Israelites sprung from barren parents, Abraham and Sarah. That is because God did not want them born of the will of flesh, or of bloods (noble lineage) or the will of man; but waited until Abraham was infertile (dead) as Sarah already was"

Abraham "barren" and "infertile"? I don't think so!

Genesis 23
"19": ... Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre: the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan."

Genesis 25
"1": Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

"2": And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

"3": And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

"4": And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
---------------

Abraham had many childen after Sarah died. Your desire to misappropriate the new birth and apply it to the flesh of the Jews: John 1" "12": But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
"13": Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


is a very serious error. It grows out of the desire to validate a falsee theology that takes away the focus on Jesus and the Church and puts it instead on the Israel and the flesh of modern antichrist Jews. It also show a serious misunderstanding of the New Covenant and Christ's fulfillment of the Old.

It was not the genetics of Abraham but his faith that created the nation of ancient Israel.

Tje promises of God were to Abraham's SEED singular, not plural as St. Paul tells us in Galatian and Romans. The promises of God to Abraham were to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ, not through a racial nation. It was in Christ through faith that Abraham was to become a mighty nation as the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea, not through the genetics of the modern Jews.

If you had listened and believed the words of Paul in Galatian 3:9 and Romans 2:9, you would have never fallen for the false theology of Christian Zionism (rabbinical Judaism).

Romans 2
"28": For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

"29": But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God


Galatians 3
"27": For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

"28": There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

"29": And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/14/2002 8:02:19 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 39621
 
"only a faithful remnant would be left by whom the promises would be fulfilled"

That faithful remnant was the Apostles and disciples along with tens of thousands of first century Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah and established the Christian Church. These Jewish evangelists went forth from Jerusalem and converted the world to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jesus Christ, and thus fulfilled the prophecies. How can anyone read the Gospels, Acts, the Epistle's of Paul, John and Peter, and the Christian history of the first three centuries and not understand this elementary fact about the New Covenant? To attempt to return to the old covenant is to deny that God has already fulfilled Jeremiah 31: "31": Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

"32": Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

"33": But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Paul tells us in Hebrews 13 that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant: "13": In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Read all of Hebrew 8, particularly 8: 8-13.

History is sacred because it is first necessary to know history if one is to understand the hand of God in human history! There is NO other way for us to judge whether or not certain scriptures have been fulfilled. Ignorance of history and the early teachings of the Apostles, disciples and fathers of the Church cause the Christian Zionist to go into serious heresy. Because of this ignorance, they attempt to drag fulfilled prophecies from the past into the future and look for another fulfillment. ('my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge')

The modern Christian Zionist heresy is satanic and attempts to Judaize Christians and resurrecting already fulfilled scriptures in an attempt to revive the dead old covenant. The doctrine that the old covenant will still be fulfilled in the future comes from the rabbinical teachings in the Talmud that reject Jesus as the Messiah and focus on a future fulfillment.

How will these modern antichrist rabbis recognize the Messiah when he returns? Will they use the already fulfilled prophecies? Will Jesus once more be born of virgin? Will Jesus once more be crucified for the sins of mankind? Will Jesus once more be born in Bethlehem, take sanctuary in Egypt and then return to Nazareth? NO, no ,no ! Jesus will return in power to judge! So according to the Christian Zionist heresy, the modern antichrist rabbis are left without a means to identify Jesus when he returns because they deny that Jesus has already fulfilled these prophecies!



To: Stan who wrote (33557)10/19/2002 3:25:17 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Respond to of 39621
 
"a faithful remnant would be left by whom the promises would be fulfilled"

Hitory clearly proves that the prophecies you are referring to in the above statement were fulfilled in the first and second centuries. Men of every nation held to the 'skirt of the Jew' (Jewish Apostles and disciples in the first century) and learned of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob--Jesus Christ.

ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY by Eusebius---BOOK 2, Chapter 3
The Doctrine of Christ soon spread throughout All the World
Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles(mostly Jews in the 1st century) went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

In every city and village, churches were quickly established, filled with multitudes of people like a replenished threshing-floor. And those whose minds, in consequence of errors which had descended to them from their forefathers, were fettered by the ancient disease of idolatrous superstition, were, by the power of Christ operating through the teaching and the wonderful works of his disciples , set free, as it were, from terrible masters, and found a release from the most cruel bondage. They renounced with abhorrence every species of demoniacal polytheism, and confessed that there was only one God, the creator of all things, and him they honored with the rites of true piety, through the inspired and rational worship which has been planted by our Saviour among men.

But the divine grace being now poured out upon the rest of the nations Cornelius, of C'sarea in Palestine, with his whole house, through a divine revelation and the agency of Peter, first received faith in Christ; and after him a multitude of other Greeks in Antioch, to whom those who were scattered by the persecution of Stephen had preached the Gospel. When the church of Antioch was now increasing and abounding, and a multitude of prophets from Jerusalem were on the ground, among them Barnabas and Paul and in addition many other brethren, the name of Christians first sprang up there, as from a fresh and life-giving fountain. And Agabus, one of the prophets who was with them, uttered a prophecy concerning the famine which was about to take place, and Paul and Barnabas were sent to relieve the necessities of the brethren.


Book 4--
CHAPTER 1
The Parts of the World in which the Apostles preached Christ
Such was the condition of the Jews. Meanwhile the holy apostles and disciples of our Saviour were dispersed throughout the world. Parthia, according to tradition, was allotted to Thomas as his field of labor, Scythia to Andrew, and Asia to John, who, after he had lived some time there, died at Ephesus. Peter appears to have preached in Pontus, Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, and Asia to the Jews of the dispersion. And at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer in this way. What do we need to say concerning Paul, who preached the Gospel of Christ from Jerusalem to Illyricum, and afterwards suffered martyrdom in Rome under Nero? These facts are related by Origen in the third volume of his Commentary on Genesis.