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To: Richnorth who wrote (90625)10/17/2002 5:45:09 AM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116790
 
We don't see 100 poor nations using the M16. They use the AK47 because the are cheap, rugged and reliable. Like the Russian aircraft, they will work anywhere and they are as good or better than the US models which cost 10 times as much. The AK47 has fueled revolution and overthrow in 40 countries. This is exactly what it was made to do. It gives awesome destructive power to a squad equipped in that manner. The accuracy is such that it is not effective beyond 400 metres. The garand however was a weapon that would reach out to 800 and even 2400 to kill on demand. Despite its weight, its all around effectiveness, which made it a multi-soldier assault weapon, led George Patton to call it the best military weapon ever made. It's firepower made US units able to outgun opposing enemy units in suprise encounters with ease, (when properly trained.) No military rifle made today has its firepower, muzzle speed, energy and penetrating effectiveness out to range. With a plastic stock, aluminum-titanium barrel, muzzle brake/silencer, self ranging scope and recoil absorber, at say 7.5 pounds, it would be an army killer. Heavy rounds could be redesigned to penetrate body armour on a one in two basis.

Originally, the AK47 was designed to give high firepower to troops held down by enemy units. In what you read, it sounds like the answer. Like the WWII German assault rifle on which it was based, the Sturmgewehr 34, it appears to the the cat's meow.

There is a divergent opinion. A WWII lieutenant noted that all auto weapons ran out of ammo fast in any situation where you might have to fight a while, so frequently left both sides with no bullets and a standoff. Bolt actions maximally preserved ammo so where better for 95% of military situations where cover was obtainable, and that is always the preferred situation. In some cases you might be held down for 24 hours. Squad-wise you only need a couple of high fire rate pieces for specific tasks such as suppression and sniper flush.

Where you want really high fire rate, is assault and suppression. (forest encounter is one other situation, which is why the M16 was useful.. but the AK47 would have done an equally good job) It (HFR) is usable in certain stuations. On a task basis it can be fulfilled by Bren/Bar type weapons, or light recoilless designs. You have to realize what the Bar/Bren would do. At one mile you could halt and seriously damage a column of trucks or kill many soldiers in an enemy column. You could outshoot an expert sniper at 800 metres or cut down the tree he was in with the heavy bullets falling at up to 10 per second. The M1 Springfield round has the flattest trajectory past 500 yards of any military cartridge ever made and most sporting cartridges as well. Most military kills are made at under 400 yards. But to assure effectiveness near that range you had better have something that will do an equal job out to 600 to 800. In this the 55 grain bullets are not there. At 1000 yards, opposing a group with AK47's, it is safe to stick your head up. During the trench warfare in Afghanistan that is the range that developed between forces with those weapons. If those guys all had M1 Garands at that distance, I would not do that.

EC<:-}



To: Richnorth who wrote (90625)10/17/2002 7:23:56 AM
From: long-gone  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116790
 
OT
<<Or rather the ammo for the M1 is usable on AK47 and the ammo for the AK47 is usable on the M1.>>

Whoever it is that keeps this rumor alive is an absolute idiot & knows nothing about firearms.(also see 2nd post this topic)
ballistics from the Bible according to Remington
remington.com
If the M-1 about which you speak is the Garand it uses the 30-06:
.30-06 Springfield
Index No. Wt. (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Barrel
Length
R30069 55 Pointed Soft Point, Accelerator 9 1/2 24"
R30061 125 Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 24"
R30062 150 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 24"
R30063 150 Bronze Point™ 9 1/2 24"
PRSC3006C 150 Swift™ Scirocco™ 9 1/2 24"
R3006B 165 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 24"
R30064 180 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 24"
R30065 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 24"
R30066 180 Bronze Point™ 9 1/2 24"
R30067 220 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 24"
PRT3006A 150 Nosler® Ballistic Tip® 9 1/2 24"
PRB3006SA 165 Pointed Soft Point, Boat Tail 9 1/2 24"
PRT3006B 165 Nosler® Ballistic Tip® 9 1/2 24"
RS3006A 180 Swift™ A-Frame™ PSP 9 1/2 24"
PRC3006C 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® Ultra 9 1/2 24"
PRSC3006B 180 Swift™ Scirocco™ 9 1/2 24"
PRP3006A 180 Nosler® Partition® 9 1/2 24"

Velocity (ft./sec.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
55 PSP 4080 3484 2964 2499 2080 1706
125 PSP 3140 2780 2447 2138 1853 1595
150 PSPCL 2910 2617 2342 2083 1843 1622
150 BP 2910 2656 2416 2189 1974 1773
150 SS 2910 2696 2492 2298 2111 1934
165 PSPCL 2800 2534 2283 2047 1825 1621
180 SPCL 2700 2348 2023 1727 1466 1251
180 PSPCL 2700 2469 2250 2042 1846 1663
180 BP 2700 2485 2280 2084 1899 1725
220 SPCL 2410 2130 1870 1632 1422 1246
150 NBT 2910 2696 2492 2298 2112 1934
165 PSPBT 2800 2592 2394 2204 2023 1852
165 NBT 2800 2609 2426 2249 2080 1919
180 SAPSP 2700 2465 2243 2032 1833 1648
180 PSPCLU 2700 2480 2270 2070 1882 1704
180 SS 2700 2522 2351 2186 2028 1878
180 NP 2700 2512 2332 2160 1995 1837

Energy (ft.-lbs.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
55 PSP 2033 1482 1073 763 528 355
125 PSP 2736 2145 1662 1269 953 706
150 PSPCL 2820 2281 1827 1445 1131 876
150 BP 2820 2349 1944 1596 1298 1047
150 SS 2820 2421 2069 1758 1485 1246
165 PSPCL 2872 2352 1909 1534 1220 963
180 SPCL 2913 2203 1635 1192 859 625
180 PSPCL 2913 2436 2023 1666 1362 1105
180 BP 2913 2468 2077 1736 1441 1189
220 SPCL 2837 2216 1708 1301 988 758
150 NBT 2821 2422 2070 1769 1485 1247
165 PSPBT 2872 2462 2100 1780 1500 1256
165 NBT 2873 2494 2155 1854 1588 1350
180 SAPSP 2913 2429 2010 1650 1343 1085
180 PSPCLU 2913 2457 2059 1713 1415 1161
180 SS 2913 2542 2208 1910 1644 1409
180 NP 2913 2522 2174 1864 1590 1349

Short-Range¹ Trajectory *
Cartridge 50
yds. 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds.
55 PSP -0.4 0.2 zero -1.0 -3.0 -6.2
125 PSP -0.1 0.6 zero -1.9 -5.2 -10.1
150 PSPCL 0.2 0.7 zero -2.2 -5.9 -11.4
150 BP 0.2 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.6 -10.8
150 SS 0.1 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.3 -10.2
165 PSPCL 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
180 SPCL -0.1 zero -1.5 -4.9 -10.3 -18.3
180 PSPCL -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.8 -15.4
180 BP -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.7 -15.0
220 SPCL 0.1 zero -2.0 -6.2 -12.9 -22.4
150 NBT 0.1 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.3 -10.2
165 PSPBT 0.2 0.8 zero -2.2 -5.8 -11.2
165 NBT 0.2 0.8 zero -2.1 -5.7 -10.9
180 SAPSP -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.9 -15.4
180 PSPCLU -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.7 -15.1
180 SS -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.0 -8.3 -14.2
180 NP -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.0 -8.4 -14.4

Long Range² Trajectory *
Cartridge 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
55 PSP 1.4 1.8 1.4 zero -2.6 -12.2 -30.0
125 PSP 1.5 1.4 zero -2.8 -7.4 -22.4 -47.6
150 PSPCL 1.8 1.6 zero -3.2 -8.2 -24.4 -50.9
150 BP 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -7.7 -22.7 -46.6
150 SS 1.6 1.5 zero -2.9 -7.3 -21.1 -42.3
165 PSPCL 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 25.9 -53.2
180 SPCL 2.4 2.1 zero -4.3 -11.0 33.8 -72.8
180 PSPCL 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -9.0 -26.3 -54.0
180 BP 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.8 -25.5 -52.0
220 SPCL 1.3 zero -3.5 -9.5 -18.4 -46.4 -91.6
150 NBT 1.6 1.5 zero -2.9 -7.3 -21.1 -42.8
165 PSPBT 1.8 1.6 zero -3.1 -7.9 -23.0 -46.6
165 NBT 1.8 1.6 zero -3.1 -7.7 -22.3 -45.0
180 SAPSP 2.1 1.8 zero -3.6 -9.1 -26.6 -54.4
180 PSPCLU 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.9 -25.8 -52.7
180 SS 2.0 1.7 zero -3.3 -8.3 -23.9 -47.9
180 NP 2.0 1.7 zero -3.3 -8.4 -24.3 -48.9


Premier® Ballistic Tip® Premier® Boat Tail
Premier® Safari Grade Premier® Partition®
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra

Note 1: Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note 2: Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note*: Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.

If the "M-1" is the Carbine:
.30 Carbine
Index No. Wt. (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Barrel
Length
R30CAR 110 Soft Point 6 1/2 20"

Velocity (ft./sec.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
110 SP 1990 1567 1236 1035 923 842

Energy (ft.-lbs.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
110 SP 967 600 373 262 208 173

Short-Range¹ Trajectory *
Cartridge 50
yds. 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds.
110 SP 0.6 zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6

Long Range² Trajectory *
Cartridge 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
110 SP zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6 -116.6 225.5

Note 1: Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note 2: Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note*: Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.

(AK-47) (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Barrel
Length
R762391 125 Pointed Soft Point 7 1/2 24"

Velocity (ft./sec.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
125 PSP 2365 2062 1783 1533 1320 1154

Energy (ft.-lbs.)
Cartridge Muzzle 100
yds. 200
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
125 PSP 1552 1180 882 652 483 370

Short-Range¹ Trajectory *
Cartridge 50
yds. 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds.
125 PSP 0.1 zero -2.2 -6.7 -14.0 -24.5

Long Range² Trajectory *
Cartridge 100
yds. 150
yds. 200
yds. 250
yds. 300
yds. 400
yds. 500
yds.
125 PSP 1.5 zero -3.8 -10.4 -20.1 -51.3 -102.5


Note 1: Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note 2: Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.

Note*: Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.



To: Richnorth who wrote (90625)10/17/2002 9:07:43 AM
From: long-gone  Respond to of 116790
 
re: AK-47 / M-1 NOT= or even cross usable

Caliber Case Type Bullet Diameter Case Length Rim Diameter Neck Diameter Shoulder Diameter Base Diameter Total Length Primer Year Introduced
30 Carbine
(32 WSL) D 0.308 1.29 0.360 0.335 - 0.355 1.65 S/BX 1940
30-06 Springfield C 0.308 2.49 0.473 0.340 0.441 0.470 3.34 L 1903
members.shaw.ca
7.62X39 - 0.311 1.51 0.443 0.334 0.395 0.440 2.150 - -
rh

following links for picture only - I do not endorse or recommend their or any reloading data -
USE AT OWN RISK
7.62X39
nucleus.com
30 carbine
reloadammo.com
30-06
reloadammo.com



To: Richnorth who wrote (90625)10/17/2002 7:34:30 PM
From: ubetcha  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116790
 
Richnorth,
The AR15 was definitely subject to jamming, not as true for the M1. It was almost as reliable as the AK47. The AK47 was certainly superior in that environment. If memory serves me, the AK47 could use the M1 ammo, but not necessarily vice versa. The M1 used 30-06 while the AK47 uses the 7.62 x 39 round which is the same as NATO and the chinese assault rifle uses. In almost all weaponry used in VietNam, they could use our ammo in their's, but we could not use their ammo in ours.

Never found that dirt caused the M1 to malfunction. It could fire after being pushed through mud and dirt. Could not say that about the AR15. As I said before, I could stand the extra weight to have a more reliable rifle.
Terry