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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (53996)10/22/2002 5:45:55 PM
From: Win Smith  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
There are two sides to every story. From "A Gaza Diary", by Chris Hedges, harpers.org (article starts at harpers.org )

It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's cunt!"

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.



To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (53996)10/22/2002 7:17:17 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi Sir Francis Drake; Re: "Regardless, in my book Israel is in the clear wrt. Lebanon, ..."

I don't know if the last few details ever got worked out:

U.N. tells Israel to amend border with Lebanon
The United Nations told Israel on Wednesday to amend its border with Lebanon after cartographers found it had violated the line defining its withdrawal at one point.

Timor Goksel, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), told Reuters Israel had to change the border at its northern settlement of Misgav'am before his troops could verify that the Jewish state had ended its 22-year occupation.

"The Israelis have misinterpreted the U.N. line... and the United Nations cannot accept that," Goksel said.

"We have asked the Israelis to change it and are now waiting for them before sending any troops on the ground," he added.

UNIFIL was due to patrol the border area on Wednesday to ensure Israel had totally quit south Lebanon in compliance with U.N. resolutions.

A final verification would open the way for UNIFIL to deploy along the frontier, to maintain the relative calm that prevailed in the area since last month's withdrawal. The Lebanese government has also said it would decide about sending the army to the area only after the U.N. team ended its work.
...
U.N. SAYS FEW POINTS OF CONTENTION
Both Lebanon and Israel have complained the withdrawal line does not comply with their version of the international border but Larsen said points of contention were few, with divergences ranging between 10 and 200 meters (yards).
...
The Shebaa Farms is a remote area bordering Syria's occupied Golan Heights. Israel said it seized it from Syria in 1967 but both Beirut and its political master Damascus say it is Lebanese land. Hizbollah guerrillas, which led the fight to evict Israel from the south, had vowed to keep battling the Jewish state if it did not quit Shebaa.
...

metimes.com

The above is from two years ago. Hopefully Nadine will comment on the details of the last "200 meters".

-- Carl

P.S. These guys (both sides) would find ways to argue over how to split a dinner bill. And making a big deal over 200 meters only goes to further illustrate Israel's hopelessly tiny size, in terms of military survival.



To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (53996)10/22/2002 7:45:05 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Well that's what happens when you have a border without a negotiated settlement first

But SFD, the Israelis withdrew to the internationally recognized border. Haven't you just been assuring me that withdrawing to an internationally recognized border magically insures peace and harmony all around? If it didn't work in Lebanon why should any sane person expect it to work in the West Bank?

As for Israel's soul -- it is a Mideastern country, SFD. Not only is it in the Mideast, but the majority of people in it never came from Europe and their ancestors never were in Europe either. That is the horrible misfit when you keep talking about "colonial" - Israel is not anybody's colony. It is surely too much to ask that the Israelis should be permanently unaffected by the sea of hatred they live in. But that won't be fixed until the Arabs stop being such losers, in their own eyes as much as anyone's. Israel's success is driving them crazy with shame. You can try to fix it by demanding that Israel commit suicide (and that is what you are demanding, though you don't realize it; until you recognize what is driving the Arabs it's easy to deceive yourself that when they demand "stolen land" back they are talking about 1967, not 1948), or by trying to haul the Arab countries into the modern world.

But Israel is not like the Arabs. You know how you tell the difference? When Israel kills Arab kids, people wince and the army appoints a commission of inquiry. When the Palestinians kill Jewish kids, they throw a party -- that was the whole point of the exercise. Remember which side danced in street on 9/11.



To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (53996)10/22/2002 9:53:34 PM
From: frankw1900  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
And my final point, which I'm afraid will not be understood by many. The biggest tragedy of the ME and Israel IMHO, has nothing to do with terrorism's bloody trail in Israel, horrible as it is. It has to do with what is happening with Israel proper. As a result of being in that neighborhood, they've come to resemble it - like an infection, they've absorbed the mentality. The Israel I treasure is the one where I can listen to Beethoven and Bach. Not one where I see screaming settlers baying for blood - change their clothes and they're no different from the Taliban. This is the point of greatest tragedy. The country which we all felt cultural kinship and affinity for, has become just another nasty, devious, vicious, bloodthristy ME regime. Netanyahu and his ilk have accomplished what the terrorists have not - they've transformed the country's soul. You speculated that the reason why young Europeans in Scandinavia turned against Israel is because of anti-Semitism. What a sad statement - it is so easy to say in order to dismiss the seriousness of those who disagree with you. And it missess an alarm bell - you are in deep trouble. For you are talking about countries where the opposite was true - Denmark, which bravely protected Jews with incredible solidarity during WWII, Sweden where people shared their homes with Jewish refugees. No, they are not anti-Semites, and thus labelling them, you miss what they are trying to tell you. You have changed. You have become a vicious occupying regime, losing its humanity, and your connection to our culture - you've become a victimizer, an indefensible evil. This is the final legacy of the poison of occupation and ill-gotten goods. Many Jewish friends here have agreed with me, and some are even beginning to speak out. Many who cannot take this change of culture move out of Israel. Soon, the only voices left, will be the nasty, hoarse screams of regional hatred. Goodbye, Israel - what a tragedy.

I understand you completely.

You've conflated the whacko 10% of Israeli society with the whole.

You've confused the scandanavian anti-semites who are ignorant, reactionary nitwits, who don't understand, and reject, the history and structure of their own society with informed critics of Israel's policies and practices.

Your own antisemitism shows like a night time fire on a hillside:

You have become a vicious occupying regime, losing its humanity, and your connection to our culture - you've become a victimizer, an indefensible evil.

Maybe I do you wrong. Maybe you're just a niceness antisemite: well behaved jews who are cultured and play Bach and Beethoven (who weren't jewish) are ok. I suppose nice kibbitzum singing havanageela are ok , also. Uppity jews, on the other hand, who are just as varied and good and bad as any other people, are not nice.

Israel is not "an indefensible evil," it is a modern democracy which is in a difficult position at the front line of the war between modernity and archaism. This war plays out within every country and Israel is no exception, but unlike its neighbours, the palestinians, and the other countries in the area, modernity dominates in Israel. The palestinians are in a worse position than the Israelis because so many of them are modernist in attitude but totally subject to the archaic rule of Arafat and his patrons. (The real reason the Saudis, Iranians and other islamists despise and fear the palestininans is that, left alone to make accommodation with the Israelis they would become the middle eastern modernist, democratic powerhouse which would profoundly subvert the failed archaic regimes and mullahs. Thus they can't leave the palestinians alone but ship them weapons, mullahs and Hezbollah, an Iranian, not Israeli, creation).

Israel inherited the occupied territory from the last big war it won with its neighbours and made mistakes with it (Nadine can describe these better than me, did you but ask her) and is now living with the mistakes. It is absolutely certain undisciplined members of Israeli security services and IDF, fundamentalist Israelis, and stupid policies have made the situation in the occupied (ex-Jordanian) territories much worse than it might have been. But concluding from this, as you have, that Israel is now the Alpha and Omega of evil, indicates more about you than about Israel.

The most interesting aspect of the new European antisemitism you identify with is that it shows that some young Europeans are again flirting with archaic thought as they did several times in the last century - fascism, naziism, marxism, stalinism - yearning for life according to a nostalgic recipe book and once again denying the challenge and rewards of modernity.

Your take on Serbia is wrong. The west came down on the greater Serbia nonsense because it was a return to archaism right in its own backyard.

You are also wrong about Israel. The west will support it through its very difficult process because it is modern, and as such, is not a tiny country but part of something embodying the lives and dreams of billions of people. None of whom have much sympathy for failed states and tyrants who want to make them all into their vision of out at the arse 8th century peasants. Israel vastly out numbers its neighbours.

Something to think about:

Israel and the palestinians have, in every dimension, far more in common with each other and the modern world, than with any of their neighbours. That is the real threat to every other regime in the middle east.

What gets in the way of their accommodation? The palestinians have Arafat, a ruler they have no way of removing. The israelis don't have a ruler.

Muslim modernists lost their war hundreds of years ago. They've only been able to raise a few skirmishes since. This war between modernists and archaic-ists is for keeps. It is total war at every level. The west went through its last big war between these forces during the last sixty years - it killed at least 100 million.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, Sir Francis.