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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (54109)	10/23/2002 9:13:18 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Nadine - Allow me to respectfully point out that your argument is fallacious. >>PALESTINIANS ARE FIGHTING A WAR OF LIBERATION<< This is true, but it is deceptive to argue that they only want to "liberate" the West Bank and Gaza. They want to "liberate" Israel, too. This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, want. Sooner or later, you need to make a distinction between the general populace in the region widely known as "Palestine" ("Palestinians", hereafter) and the extremist religious groups (Hamas, etc). Palestinians want what any nation wants - to live in reasonable happiness. To this end, they would be content to see the end of occupation, and once they feel there lies a future they can look forward to, where they can provide for their children and see them grow without daily humiliation. Hamas et al are extremist groups who want more and probably will insist in any case that Israel be destroyed. These are two different entities. They are allied right now, because Sharon's policies of occupation are making them unite against the common enemy standing between them and their goals. If they want peace, then they have to stop Hamas and Hezbollah from waging war. You are very wrong. This is not how politics work. Groups of people just don't stop supporting extremist groups. It is up to the states fighting those extremist groups to alienate the general populace from the extremists. This is precisely whatSir FD, myself, and some others on this board have repeately said. Make the dreams of the average Palestinian come true and he will no longer be allied with Hamas et al against the state of Israel. He will be too busy living.

To: Ilaine who wrote (54109)	10/23/2002 11:36:38 AM
From: Sir Francis Drake	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

CB, you cannot make all Palestinian aspiration equal to Hamas/PIJ/Hezbollah. The latter are extremists. JUST AS THERE ARE ISRAELI EXTREMISTS settlers, Kach and various organisations that advocate the expulsion of Arabs etc. Is Israel Kach? Not anymore than Palestinians are Hamas. Do not allow the extremists to define the entire agenda. Rather, the center on both sides must unite to push extremists to the side. The majority of the Palestinian people approve of what Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, are doing. Most likely true. That does NOT mean however that the majority shares the ULTIMATE goals of hardline PIJ/Hamas leadership. They certainly approve of Hamas in waging a war of liberation - just as Israelis approve of the actions against Hamas commanders even when there may be 8 innocent civilians including children killed at the same time. Remember, many more Palestinians, civilian non-combatants have been killed by Israelis in this conflict than Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians. Does that mean all Israelis would like to see all Palestinian innocent civilians killed? No. "We'll fight until the terror stops" say the Israelis. "We'll fight until we liberate the territories" say the Palestinians. The solution is to withdraw to pre-67, because there really is no alternative. The sooner that is done the fewer victims there will be. Because eventually this WILL happen. The only question is when, and after what price in blood has been paid. Unfortunately, you believe, and promote, a falsehood. Nope. I simply think that the Palestians are human beings, just as Israelis are human beings, and therefore wish to live in peace IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Israelis ESTABLISHED a country. The Palestinians want no less. Neither side has a monopoly on virtue nor on flaws. I think demonizing either side is counter-productive. And the best road, is Israel giving up occupation withdrawing to pre-67, Palestinians giving up all claims to right of return to pre-67 borders, and all other land and monetary claims.