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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (54234)	10/23/2002 4:39:04 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

>>Is it good, or bad that many expect more from Israel in this context?<< Probably bad, actually. It's a nice compliment, as I have argued, myself. But the down side of low expectations is low performance. Also, it increases the polarization. If the Palestinians are somehow forgiven for bad behavior but the Israelis are not, that makes the Israelis worse people when they misbehave, but the Palestinians are given a pass. Everybody "understands" the Palestinian side, but few "understand" the Israeli side. Drives the Israelis nuts, too. I thought the Mitchell Report was pretty balanced in assigning blame. Have you read it? usinfo.state.gov

To: Sir Francis Drake who wrote (54234)	10/23/2002 6:40:26 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Is it good, or bad that many expect more from Israel in this context? Answer yourself. I believe I've known that answer for a long time SFD.. Civilization, and all the "niceties", legal and moral statutes, and behaviors its adherents subscribe to, is an artificial condition. It's one that defies the ultimate law... The law of the Jungle... I refuse to excuse the Palestinians for committing terrorism or acts of suicidal "martyrdom" against civilians, just as I would refuse to excuse the Israelis for engaging in it, were this blatantly the case. I've always stated that, if the Palestinians chose to do so, they can engage in conflict with Israeli soldiers.. It's always been a nation's right to go to war, as well as suffer the consequences for doing so when they are defeated. (though in the case of the Arabs, it seems the world always tried to mitigate the repercussions of their aggression against Israel, for reasons I don't understand). They could even permit their men and women to conduct suicide attacks against IDF soldiers, if they chose and I would only begin questioning whether their cultural values were consistent with civilized behavior. But when they send their children out to throw rocks at armed soldiers... When they pack explosives on their children for suicide missions against ANYONE, let alone Israeli civilians, it causes me to deeply wonder whether such a culture should be granted statehood, let alone some kind of status as a nationality. Many people rail against Israeli "zionism", but who's complaining about the forthcoming Palestinian form of it?? After all, historical Palestine, apart from being a geographical territory defined by the Crusaders, includes much of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and parts of Saudi Arabia. So if "liberation" of "Palestine" is the ultimate goal, shouldn't it follow that the Jews are only the first step?? What redeeming values are the Palestinian people bringing to their desire for statehoood?? Power?. hatred? Destruction? Imperialism?.. Just what?? Why are they so deserving of nation-state when it has been evidenced by a proclivity to commit unabashed terrorism against civilians?? Why should the international community go out of its way to defend and justify such actions?? I can look back at the allegations of Israeli misdeeds (claiming they forced Palestinians into exile to the refugee camps) and wonder if the greater good that resulted from their society and culture mitigated (not justified) any atrocities that occurred.. I can look back at the United States and the atrocities that were committed by previous governments, yet I feel little compulsion to compensate the survivors of those atrocities because we have developed a better nation than existed then... We have brought greater civilization and human freedom, not just perpetuated that oppression. We, and the Israelis, in effect, have redeemed ourselves from any past deeds by the nature of the societies we have sought to develop. (so have the Germans, British, and other European colonial powers. However the French seem to get oh so close, but then they screw it up.. :0) But I have found nothing redeeming in the societies that were permitted to form in the Middle East (outside of Turkey). Certainly not Saudi Arabia, not Iraq, or Egypt.. Nothing redeeming at all to make up for their past abuses against others, and their own people. And I certainly don't see anything redeeming to the Palestinian cause. I see very little progress or tolerance that will occur as a result of their being "bestowed" status as a nation/state... What is their inspiration? Their dream?? Their "raison d'etre"?? We had the constitution and a dream of creating a different form of society than the existing monarchies and tyrannies then present in the world. The Israelis had a dream of returning to their historical religious foundations and language, as well as geographical homeland from before they were forced into diaspora by Romans and Crusaders. And they did this in the form of a democracy, the only one in the region, truly a noble goal that mitigates any past wrongs committed. But what justifies all of this attention to the Palestinians, when they have no unique language, religion, or geographical history they can distinctly call their own?? And why shouldn't we expend the same, or even greater effort, on behalf of the Kurds, the Maronite Christians of Lebanon, or the Copts of Egypts?? Why aren't we pushing for the 54 different and distinct cultures in Vietnam to each have their own individual homeland?? In my opinion, we do it because people like Arafat have told us that if we don't, he'll directly target our civilian airliners, and potentially our cities... We do it because we're caving into blackmail... not because the Palestinians have any redeeming values that would add to social progress and toleration in the region.. Hawk@my.02worth.com