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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55288)	10/28/2002 6:57:34 PM
From: Snowshoe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

How do you say "Let's roll!" in Russian? <g>

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55288)	10/28/2002 10:13:17 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

<Putin gets this; as he has said, "We are as dust to them."> Nadine, I think it's worse. I think there is malevolent glee in their murder of Infidels, as in the purported poetry by Osama about the Cole [I think it was] for his offspring's wedding 'Their bodies flew in parts, splattered .... blah blah blah'. I get no pleasure from vacuuming dust, or killing bacteria, or killing fish [though the process of hunting is exciting - there's something instinctive and enjoyable about hunting, war etc] and would get no pleasure from killing Osama [it would be a job needing doing, I would hate that he had put me in the position to have to do that, just as I would get no pleasure from killing a common criminal if they raped or killed one of my daughters but they would be dead]. Sadistic people do get pleasure from other's suffering - which is I suppose a motive for terrorists, which makes it tough to deal with them [they don't enjoy their own suffering]. Nevertheless, they are NOT insane and some level of reasoning process and interests remains until they have done what they claim to wish for [their martyrdom]. While they are sentient, they are amenable to changing their mind, or being confused, or otherwise changed from their course. They don't love death more than I love life. That's a silly verbal game they play and they do value life, which is why they continue to live it until they destroy themselves. That slogan about loving death more than I love life has no meaning within it and if the words are logically followed, their continued existence for a second proves it false. Therefore, the idea is a paradox - their use of the sentence proves the sentence is false because the existence of the sentence bearing any meaning by the person saying it is proof of its falsehood. I think I've got that right. A week or two ago I tried to think what the heck that sentence actually meant. It could mean [ignoring the actual words, which were probably a bad translation from Arabic], that I fear death and want life more strongly than they are comfortable with death and will use their demise as a means to control me to benefit their group identity [other people who share part of their identity - the religious superstition component]. So, by them and me being tied to a bomb, they can make me give them my last 1c because unless I comply with their will, they'll blow us both to smithereens and that idea will upset me a lot more than them because they value their life less than I value mine, right down to 1 cent. Which might actually be true in that sense. In that sense, I don't think the idea is as irrational as it sounds in English. It's true! I really do value my life more than they do theirs, so they can get me to hand over 1c or $1000 or all my money. If the Chechens had suddenly changed their demand to delivery back to Chechnya with no hostages hurt, it would not make sense to insist that they continue with their original plan of keeping hostages and making impossible demands. If they had demanded an ice-cream each and then they'd surrender with no other demands, of course that would be worthwhile. The idea that one should not negotiate with terrorists is silly. I don't think it wise to take an incorrect translation literally and base future approaches to negotiations with terrorists on a false premise. A better approach would be, "Okay Osama, I agree you value death much more than I value life, but would you like an ice-cream, a nice cup of tea and a chat before we both end it all for you and that bunch of hostages?" I think he'd find such an offer irresistible. It seems a cheap enough option to me. If I'm the hostage, please tell everyone to have a nice cup of tea. Don't let a slogan do your thinking for you, Mqurice Mqurice

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55288)	10/29/2002 10:47:26 AM
From: carranza2	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Putin gets this; as he has said, "We are as dust to them" Thanks for posting those six words which say it all.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55288)	10/29/2002 11:06:21 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I think Al Qaeda has irrevocably changed the calculations that all countries will make when facing a hostage situation Oh please. Not everything has to do with 9/11, you know... The Russian state has always had a heavy hand and here is that heavy hand at work again - improperly calculated concentration of gas, negligence, and my personal favourite, keeping secret the identity of the gas so that the patients cannot be treated. It is Kursk all over again. There they let their own people die trapped in a submarine rather than let other countries' rescue people glimpse at their precious submarine, and here they let their own people die rather than letting other countries know what gases they have in their arsenal. especially one where the terrorists claim the Islamist mantle themselves The conflict between the Chechens and the Russian state goes way back and has NOTHING to do with the "Islamist Mantle". They want independence. Russia does not want to give it to them. War ensues, and despite a few attempts at negotiations, continues. In this period of uncertainty and lack of authority, religious forces also sprout. However, it is not a crazed religious "jihad" that motivates them. They want independence. In fact, this very moment, there is a "Chechnya Conference" in Denmark: guardian.co.uk The world Chechen congress opened in Copenhagen yesterday, despite a threat from Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, to boycott a forthcoming EU-Russia summit - also in Copenhagen - if it went ahead. Chechen separatists at the conference yesterday distanced themselves from the hostage takers, and an envoy for separatist leader Aslan Maskhadov said he was ready for unconditional peace talks with Russia. "We urge and we are asking Putin, and we declare our readiness, to have peace talks without any preliminary terms," said Akhmed Zakayev.