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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: The Philosopher who wrote (65054)10/31/2002 3:45:43 PM
From: one_less  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
"Do you have justification for your view that what I posted was a misinterpretation of Christianity??"

There is little universal agreement on what constitutes the standards of Christianity; let alone criteria that qualify one for adhering to the standards. So, I do not want to try to argue what is Christian vs what is not. Maybe Neocon could since he is a religious scholar.

However, on the subject of forgiveness I have seen other explanations that seem much more rational. The AD Coors anecdote was nice. He was able to release his animosity toward the murderer and move on with life. If you want to call that forgiveness OK but I see it as something else. If you do call it forgiveness then you must recognize that there are other contexts that involve reconciliation. From the AD Coors anecdote I do not see reconciliation.

Reconciliatory forgiveness is a trade, or a deal of sorts as I see it. The deal is two fold because it involves reconciliation of the offender and the offended. The offended has to be a forgiver and the offender has to feel granted forgiveness

""And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." Do you see in there any demand that they apologize before their trespasses are forgiven?"

I do not see any demand in this and as I have stated previously I do not consider a coerced apology worth anything. I do see a trade off in the sentence. Do you?

The prayer is asking God to forgive us at the same measure we are forgiving to our fellows. Have we offended God? If so how, if not what is the context of forgiveness. I propose that the context is sin and there is clearly a trade off. It does say that we should be forgiving but it does not say what merits forgiveness. At a minimum there should be the three criteria I mentioned to you in the past. Even in this example we are doing what??? We are praying to God for forgiveness. I would say that meets all three criteria. Nice deal.



To: The Philosopher who wrote (65054)10/31/2002 4:00:47 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the[ 26:28 Some manuscripts the new] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 24:47
and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Acts 13:38
"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
2 Corinthians 2:5
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent–not to put it too severely.
Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace



To: The Philosopher who wrote (65054)10/31/2002 4:04:29 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Absolution
(Ab = from; solvere = to free)

Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Church. (For remission of punishment due to sin, see CENSURE, EXCOMMUNICATION, INDULGENCE.) Absolution proper is that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, he frees man from sin. It presupposes on the part of the penitent, contrition, confession, and promise at least of satisfaction;on the part of the minister, valid reception of the Order of Priesthood and jurisdiction, granted by competent authority, over the person receiving the sacrament. That there is in the Church power to absolve sins committed after baptism the Council of Trent thus declares: "But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.' By which action so signal, and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles, and to their lawful successors for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after baptism" (Sess. XIV, i). Nor is there lacking in divine revelation proof of such power; the classical texts are those found in Matthew, xvi, 19; xviii, 18, and in John, xx, 21-23. To Peter are given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Sin is the great obstacle to entrance into the kingdom, and over sin Peter is supreme. To Peter and to all the Apostles is given the power to bind and to loose, and this again implies supreme power both legislative and judicial: power to forgive sins, power to free from sin's penalties. This interpretation becomes more clear in studying the rabbinical literature, especially of Our Lord's time, in which the phrase to bind and to loose was in common use. (Lightfoot, Horæ Hebraicæ; Buxtorf, Lexicon Chald.; Knabenbauer, Commentary on Matthew, II, 66; particularly Maas, St. Matthew, 183, 184.) The granting of the power to absolve is put with unmistakable clearness in St. John's Gospel: "He breathed upon them and said, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins ye shall forgive they are forgiven them; and whose sins ye shall retain, they are retained'" (xx, 22, 23). It were foolish to assert that the power here granted by Christ was simply a power to announce the Gospel (Council of Trent, Sess. XIX, Can. iii), and quite as unwise to contend that here is contained no power other than the power to remit sin in the Sacrament of Baptism (Ibid., Sess. XIV); for the very context is against such an interpretation, and the words of the text imply a strictly judicial act, while the power to retain sins becomes simply incomprehensible when applied to baptism alone, and not to an action involving discretionary judgment. But it is one thing to assert that the power of absolution was granted to the Church, and another to say that a full realization of the grant was in the consciousness of the Church from the beginning. Baptism was the first, the great sacrament, the sacrament of initiation into the kingdom of Christ. Through baptism was obtained not only plenary pardon for sin, but also for temporal punishment due to sin. Man once born anew, the Christian ideal forbade even the thought of his return to sin. Of a consequence, early Christian discipline was loath to grant even once a restoration to grace through the ministry of reconciliation vested in the Church. This severity was in keeping with St. Paul's declaration in his Epistle to the Hebrews: "For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come and are fallen away, to be renewed again to penance" etc. (vi, 4-6). The persistence of this Christian ideal is very clear in the "Pastor" of Hermas, where the author contends against a rigorist school, that at least one opportunity for penance must be given by the Church (III Sim., viii, 11). He grants only one such chance, but this is sufficient to establish a belief in the power of the Church to forgive sins committed after baptism. St. Ignatius in the first days of the second century seemingly asserts the power to forgive sins when he declares in his letter to the Philadelphians that the bishop presides over penance. This tradition was continued in the Syrian Church, as is evident from passages found in Aphraates and Ephrem, and St. John Chrysostom voices this same Syrian tradition when he writes "De Sacerdotio" (Migne P. G., LXVII, 643), that "Christ has given to his priests a power he would not grant to the angels, for he has not said to them, 'Whatsoever ye bind, will be bound,'" etc.; and further down he adds, "The Father hath given all judgment into the hands of his Son, and the Son in turn has granted this power to his priests."

newadvent.org



To: The Philosopher who wrote (65054)10/31/2002 4:06:28 PM
From: Neocon  Respond to of 82486
 
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 17 In context: Luke 17:2-4)

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To: The Philosopher who wrote (65054)10/31/2002 4:09:40 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
A Brother Who Sins Against You

15"If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Matthew 18