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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: LindyBill who wrote (55692)	11/4/2002 8:56:54 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

LindyBill - Re your comments: >>your reaction to Frank's remark about Israel being modern Correction: My "reaction" was NOT to the remark "Israel is modern", but to "US should support Israel because it is modern", which is a naif remark of favouritism that shows clear ignorance of the risk/benefit analysis underlying such decisions in the international arena. >>>a country who engages in blatant expansionist policies, carries out brutal occupation and daily humiliation of an entire nation<<<< >>shows just how far apart many of us on this thread are from not only you, but most other Europeans What if Israelis who say the same thing? In pretty much the same words! Read below: Courage to Refuse - Combatant's Letter -- We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it. --We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides. --We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country. --We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society. --We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end. We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements. --We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people. --We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense. --The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them. seruv.org.il ---------------------------------------------- I was the 11th Israeli reserve officer to join Ometz Le'sarev (Courage to Refuse) and sign the declaration that ''We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.'' I refuse, however, to fight for the continued occupation of Palestinian land. This war is unjust. It saps my country's sanity and morality and corrupts its soul (...) the daily humiliations at checkpoints, the arbitrary closures and destruction of homes. Guy Grossman, a second lieutenant in the Israeli Defense Forces reserves, is a member of Courage to Refuse. miami.com ------------------------------------------------ Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip can in no way be considered democratic. It oppresses 3.5 million people, denying them their basic human rights. My refusal to militarily participate in this occupation, on the other hand, is most certainly a democratic act. Rami Kaplan, aged 29, is a major in the Israeli armored corps and a leading activist in the Courage to Refuse group. counterpunch.org -------------------------------------------------------- So you see, Bill, it is a shame if what you have said is true re "how far apart many of us on this thread are from not only you, but most other Europeans", because it means you are being fed a funnily distorted story that even Israeli soldiers are now denying. In fact, your perception is so distorted that you think it is "tit for tat" that Amnesty International is accusing Israel of war crimes, when they recite specific events, collection of witnesses, and post mortem analyses. >Israel is an Island of reason in a Sea of Barbarism." I am sure that remark horrifies you, but it the way a lot of us see it. Not at all. I have no sentiments about that remark, which is quite ok in the sense that the state of Israel is closer to western states than its neighbours. My objection, and listen carefully, is that this cannot be the basis for which the strongest country on earth decides to give unconditional support to a country in its brutal occupation of another country.