Concerning the “Monumental event”
Dear Santiago
we shall see him as he is.
You have likely already thought about this but if not then perhaps you will enjoy it. I have no intention of speaking down to you and so I hope this isn’t too infantile for your enjoyment. I still find it astounding that men fail to see just how presumptuous they really are until something radical enough to cause them to stop ‘dead in their tracks’ occurs and even then….
I do not know a single Preterist anywhere who has ever denied that Jesus rose from the dead with a “body” I know very few men apart from Preterists who have spent any time thinking about what kind of body that really was. We know that Jesus was not just a spiritual body as even He said:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
However, on the other hand – what kind of body walks right through walls?
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
However we also know that Jesus and He only was promised to not see ‘physical’ corruption except for those who were ‘translated’ at the coming of Christ.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had {1} in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:37 but he whom God raised up saw no corruption.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, the greatest stumbling point as I see it are the words “in like manner” contained in the verses in Acts:
Acts 1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner (tropos) as ye have seen him go into heaven.
[tropos trop’-os
1) a manner, way, fashion
1a) as, even as, like as
2) manner of life, character, deportment]
What almost every other eschatological position does with this verse is to make “in like manner” to mean EXACTLY THE SAME AS
However, a good hemeneut, soon learns that the greatest enemy of discovering God’s truth is ‘presuppositions’ (presumptions) that are considered beyond re-examination. If we look at the bible we can see this very term used elsewhere. The very first use of the word is in Matthew:
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Here it was translated “even as” – who would argue that it could mean EXACTLY THE SAME AS in that verse? It appears again in Luke 13:34 with the same words of Christ as witnessed by Luke – no change.
Now who would argue from those verses that God has wings EXACTLY THE SAME AS a chicken? Who would suggest that we should be housed in the armpits of Christ? Yet these people who insist that the second coming will yet occur as a Monumental Event and that His coming as a “thief in the night” will be witnessed by the entire world while Christ appears in a ‘physical’ body?
The first thing that strikes me is that Christ is likely the world’s worst thief. He is seen of everyone. When he left a 'select few' saw it but when he returns 'the whole world sees it' - Is that exactly the same?
The second problem is – that while Christ inhabits a very limited physical body he is somehow “seen” of every eye throughout the entire world. One fellow I knew overcame his difficulties of having walked into such a literalist’s corner was by inventing a theory that I to this day get a kick out of. He suggested that when Christ came that he would ‘strobe’ around the world at a speed faster than the speed of light and therefore although occupying only a physical body the size of a regular man, He would “in this manner” be seen of all men at the same time.
Ingenuity is often amusing but seldom wise.
Here is however a second problem for those who insist that the coming of the Lord was within a physical body EXACTLY THE SAME AS when He went behind the veil into the holy of holies at the right hand of God. (see Lev 16 to understand why He had to appear a second time before salvation could be declared finished) If it is EXACTLY the same, then His second coming would consist of first “ascending into heaven” and then “being received of a cloud.” “Well no don’t be silly”, they would cry. “It cannot be that Christ starts on earth because he is ‘coming to earth’ therefore he comes in the cloud and then descends to the earth in a physical body.” Well Santiago, that seems to be the complete opposite of how he went so that even they cannot maintain an EXACTLY THE SAME AS mentality to the utmost. Now while I would gain nothing but accusation of being foolish with such statements, I trust you will find them amusing. But I will not leave you with such ramble. The biggest question is not does “like manner’ refer to the “coming in clouds” only but also a ‘descending’ back to touch the earth in a physical body. The biggest question is – even if Acts 1 only refers to Him coming on clouds without trying to fulfill Zech 14:4 yet again ! Now I do not pretend that ‘tropos’ cannot mean ‘exactly the same’ because it can. Look at this verse
Acts 15: 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as (tropos) they.
Certainly in that verse ‘tropos’ means exactly the same as.
If the witness of the angels in Acts 1 is to mean exactly the same then I have an even bigger problem to deal with.
First that being, how it is that everyone I speak to that is not a Preterist is a better exegete than me?
Second that being, how it is that everyone I speak to that is not a Preterist is a better exegete than John?
As far as I can understand from scripture John was there when the angel told them that Jesus would come back EXACTLY THE SAME AS He left. Poor John missed it. John was chosen to receive the Revelation. John was chosen to write 3 epistles in which he foolishly thought it was the “last hour”. John was chosen to write a gospel. John was the most beloved, and it was he who rested his head upon the chest of Christ that night he was betrayed. It was John, who Christ revealed who it was that should betray him, but poor John failed to understand that Jesus was going to return in the same physical body in which he left. How could this happen? John was there, staring up into heaven. Or what about Paul? Did the apostles not tell him what the angel had said? Why did Paul say this?
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Poor, poor, Paul if you had only been told – it is sown a physical body and it is also raised a physical body just as Christ’s body was physical. Why were you never told? Double shame on John.
First, he obviously failed to tell Paul that the angels had said Jesus would return in a physical body exactly the same as it was when he left.
Second, you also failed to understand when you wrote such confusion as this:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
What is John saying? How can he say, “it is not yet made manifest”? Does John forget seeing Thomas put his fingers in the wounds? How could the “most beloved disciple” fail to understand such a plain teaching as “in like manner”?
Logically we can chart this idea as follows:
1. John did not yet know what our identity and appearance would be at the return of Christ in 70 AD
2. But when Jesus did return, he said our appearance would be like Christ’s appearance and identity
3. Therefore, John did not yet know the returning identity of Christ.
Second axiom:
1. John not yet know the identity of the returning Christ
2. John did most certainly know the identity of Christ when He ascended.
3. Therefore, the departing and ascending identity of Christ can not be body EXACTLY THE SAME AS the identity and appearance of Christ upon His return.
If then the identities are definitely not the same it is quite easy to understand that Christ’s returning identity could not have been physical. It then becomes quite easy to understand that both John and Paul looked to an unknown but most certainly ‘spiritual” body upon resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Why would men ask, if ‘we shall be like Him’ and He – even being God will inhabit a physical body throughout eternity, with what body?
Paul’s answer:
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool…..
John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time…
Why not?
John 4: 24 God is a Spirit…
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire.
I hope you have enjoyed this note Santiago – as you can see, I have still not patience for those who desire to condemn me. I think they are very dangerous individuals.
1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
God’s best to you – I hope you find something of interest within this post.
Brian |
