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Politics : Foreign Policy Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: zonder who wrote (715)12/18/2002 6:21:48 AM
From: William B. Kohn  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 15987
 
People who call GWB ignorant do not know him. Those that do think otherwise of him. I doubt it hasn't dawned on any of these European pundits that those whom they hold in high esteem, seem to always foul things up, while those that they mock have made the real positive differences in the world. Case in point, Europeans love Carter, disliked Reagan, yet it was Reagan who defeated the Soviet Union, singlehandedly. He crushed the evil empire. Now in the next battle against an evil empire, Europe backs thugs like Arafat and calls Sharon a war criminal. Those two facts speak volumes about the differences that exist between our former friends in Europe and us. We view Arafat the criminal and Sharon a valid statesman and a leader.



To: zonder who wrote (715)12/18/2002 1:53:11 PM
From: KLP  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 15987
 
Remember before 9-11 and the Taliban were "killing" the ancient statues of Buddha? I said, and am sure most of us did at the time, that "if these people could do that to something that really belonged to all mankind, what on earth would they do with real people if they could...." If SI's search was anyway what it used to be we could actually find those remarks....I believe we all knew it psychically, anyhow.

So I believe your statement about US strategy is just the opposite of what the US strategy REALLY is.... We are no longer going to roll over and let the "crazies" kill Americans at will without trying to stop them. I know that strategy will be difficult for some people to deal with, as for the last 10 years, or more, the concept is new to them.

Beware of people and civilizations that try to physically enforce their beliefs on yours. If someone here in the US isn't happy with how the US is, they are always free to return to whatever country they came from. This concept is not true in many of the countries of the world. Those people aren't free to return to their own country....they are already there. The only thing they can do is try to gather forces within and fight the tyrants.

I honestly believe that America is a beacon for the people of the world. People fight and risk their lives to come here. We do not have guns and barriers to keep the citizens here. People are free to leave if they wish. People are not free to try to kill America. Americans will no longer tolerate that thought. 9-11 changed that. Forever.

US strategy over the threat of religious fundamentalism boils down to "Let's kill the crazies". That could work in a video game where you shoot terrorists as they appear from the windows and come down the rooftops, but we need a real strategy that addresses the causes of the conflict and at the same time cuts support for these religious nutcases from their moderate but frustrated public. This is where I find the current US administration's strategy inadequate, and frankly, quite dangerous.



To: zonder who wrote (715)12/19/2002 7:22:09 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 15987
 
That could work in a video game where you shoot terrorists as they appear from the windows and come down the rooftops, but we need a real strategy that addresses the causes of the conflict and at the same time cuts support for these religious nutcases from their moderate but frustrated public.

No.. that works in real life too... Kill the crazies and some of their family members as well, and the rest will think twice about being a threat...

But first we need a "foothold" for economic and social change in the Middle East. Iraq is IDEAL for this because they are a heavily secular society (side benefit of Saddam's brutal, but secular rule). If any Arab nation has a chance of quickly adopting some semblance of even parliamentary democracy, it will be Iraq and Iran.

And another advantage of replacing Saddam's regime is that the country will need rebuilding (something the US is reknowned for), which should engender a Western friendly government. And such a regime will be necessary for the next stage in the war, dealing with Saudi Arabia.. either through containment, or overthrow... (which I prefer)..

The US defeated and occupied the imperial Japanese after WWII, a society which, only 100 years before, had been a feudalistic system of warlords and divine emperor. We introduced democracy, western economics (including Total Quality Management), western ideas..

I dare say that if we can do that there, we can do the same in the middle east, if we show sufficient resolve.

Hawk



To: zonder who wrote (715)12/21/2002 12:47:50 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 15987
 
Why Bush is a Moron (quite a good explanation, I think):

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<snip>

Europe has been trying to convince the US for the fifteen months that it was vital for the US to give Europe a veto over any contemplated use of American military power in the prosecution of this war. It's certainly important to Europe that this happen, because what the US does militarily is likely to have secondary consequences which will affect Europe. But it's never been made clear why, exactly, that meant that the US would want to shackle itself in that way given that it was pretty clear that the Europeans wanted to use that veto in ways which would benefit Europe at the expense of the US. The European position is fundamentally hypocritical: they want America to be altruistic so as to give Europe the opportunity to be selfish. The Bush administration has been impervious to such pleas, no matter how they are packaged, because he's a stupid unsophisticated cowboy, or because he's a Jacksonian with a firm suspicion of foreign gift (Trojan) horses, depending on your point of view.

The European message has always been the same: We're smarter and more wise and worldly than you; you're powerful but stupid, and it would be much better if you let us make decisions and then you carry them out. Bush hasn't been buying it.

But the Europeans are nothing if not redundant, and they keep trying to find new words to deliver the same old moldy message, in hopes that somehow or other some magic formulation will cause Bush to come to his senses and acknowledge how much smarter the Europeans actually are and how valuable their advice would be. Each time there's been a keyword.

At first the keyword was "ally". In the aftermath of the invocation of NATO Article V, where NATO declared that the attack on the US was to be treated as an attack on all members of NATO, the perverse reading of that was that since it was an attack on all of us, then all of us should collectively decide what to do about it, and that none of us should do anything about it without the others agreeing. Europe wanted to vote for "do nothing", but Bush insisted on going ahead and actually trying to take out our enemies to relieve the peril we face, and wouldn't listen to reason about how much better it would be if we just disarmed and massively increased foreign aid instead.

So we got a lot of ranting about how this was no way to treat allies, and how in an alliance there should be consultation, and how a consultation should be more than just a briefing, which is to say, that the consultation should actually involve giving the consulted ally the ability to say "no" and make it stick. Missing from all this was the idea that shared responsibility and authority should match shared risk and sacrifice and material commitment.

After a while it became clear that rhetoric about "ally" wasn't working, so they found a new word. This time it was "multilateral". Instead of condemning the US for mistreating allies, they condemned the US for being "unilateral". But though the words were different, the message was the same: don't do anything unless we give you permission, which we won't give.

That was no more successful than the previous approach, and now we see the emergence of yet another keyword. This time it's "partner".

The European Union's foreign policy chief on Tuesday lamented the lack of progress by Middle East mediators and said he longed for an American partner to help work on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"On the Middle East, I think that there has not been the necessary momentum. The road map is very clear but we have not been able to move the train out of the station a single inch," Solana said.

"I would very very much like to have somebody with me, working together (from the United States)," he added.

The overt message seems plain enough: partners are good things. But when you look carefully at the subtext, you see something different. The US and Europe disagree now about what should be done and how it should be done, and Solana's desire for a partner implicitly requires the US to abandon its own policy and to adopt the European approach. It's really the same old message: we're smarter than you and you'd do well to do what we tell you to.

That's what he means when he says that "the road map is very clear"; the Europeans know exactly what to do to bring about peace, but they don't have the diplomatic muscle to make it happen because they have no significant influence with Israel. If only the US would apply its diplomatic power in support of the European position, then all the bloodshed and violence would end in a trice and we could end this war.

I don't suppose that it's necessary to point out that the European position to which Solana refers is that Israel is primarily at fault and that the solution to the problem is to force Israel to make major concessions well beyond anything which has been previously considered plausible, to the substantial advantage of the Palestinians, imperiling the very existence of Israel itself. But there's a deeper unspoken current in the European position, at least in some places, that the very existence of Israel ("that shitty little country") is the true source of the problem. Needless to say, this is a position that America is unlikely to support any time soon.

And it's precisely the fact that the US hasn't been willing to sell Israel out that gives us influence there; it's precisely because Europe is in favor of a road map which would substantially damage Israel that Europe has no influence. Israel quite naturally won't respond the same way to external diplomatic efforts which would be substantially to its detriment, and the European idea is so starkly one-sided that it would actually be worse than the status quo.

So Solana wants an American "partner", which is to say that he wants America to turn on Israel and fuck it over by forcing Israel to make damaging concessions to the Palestinians. Solana may well get assigned an American companion, but he won't get a partner in the sense that he's using the term, because even if we assign a diplomat to work with him in the negotiations, that won't mean that we'll do what he really wants us to do. Solana is really asking for a radical change in American foreign policy towards Israel, and it's not going to happen.

Solana's words say none of this, but that's the message he's delivering. Diplomacy has always involved heavy amounts of doubletalk, with the real message not matching a literal interpretation of the words with which they're delivered. There are always subtexts and sometimes they're pernicious.

What's sad is that the European diplomats and government heads have never managed to understand one fundamental aspect of American psychology and culture: we don't respond positively to superciliousness. When someone talks down to us, we tend to give them the finger. If they react to that by lecturing us, we turn our backs on them. I do not think they have ever fully come to understand the degree of antipathy we feel towards that kind of attitude.

We are created as a nation from the dregs of Europe, its huddled masses ; we are a nation built from the lowest of Europe's low. We are its slum dwellers who worked long hours in its factories for a pittance, its starving farmers after crop failure, its persecuted religious minorities, its persecuted ethnic minorities, its refugees. Only Australia can proudly claim to be built of even worse scum than America.

We are primarily made of the Europeans who whose lives in Europe were so desperate, so miserable, so hopeless, that it was worth any risk and sacrifice for even a chance at something better. And we are the ones who were willing to leave everything they knew to go to a strange land with strange customs and a strange language. We are the ones who were willing to cross an ocean in the hold of a smelly steamship in hopes that when we arrived that America would let us enter. We're the millions who came through Ellis island, not knowing until the last instant if we'd have to turn around and go back to the hell-hole from which we came. We're the ones who were willing to gamble everything on that chance of entry, and the ones who knew what a blessing that chance represented when we got it, and the determination to make as much of that chance as we could.

But there's something else: we are the ones who hated the European class system. We are the ones who chafed at the roles that European low birth forced on us. We are the ones who wanted to escape from that and decide for ourselves what we would become, to make our own decisions, and to become as much as we were able to become even if it meant transcending the class of our birth. The selection process for who left Europe and who stayed favored those who wanted release from European stratification, and that's why we're the huddled masses yearning to be free.

And freed from the tyranny of the European class system, we have built a great and powerful nation, which has eclipsed the nations of Europe and even shamed them with its success. Commoners aren't supposed to be able to do that kind of thing unsupervised.

Members of the lower classes in Europe have a habit of deferring to the elite, whether the aristocracy, or the religious hierarchy, or the educated and privileged. In times past, not doing so could lead to dreadful punishment, but now it's just a cultural tradition. We Americans don't do that; we respect ideas but do not bend knee to people because of titles or positions. Those who came here did so in part to escape from all that. They wanted to stand tall, be self-sufficient, and take pride in their own accomplishments. They wanted a chance to do their best, and to give their children a better life than they themselves had, and to be judged for what they had done and not for who their parents were. That is a powerful cultural influence and it is deep in the foundation of all aspects of American culture. And even today's immigrants, now primarily from Asia and South America, want the same thing: to come to America, to be free, to work hard and keep what they earned, and to make a better life for their kids. The immigration process continues to filter for this attitude, which we call the "American Dream". And thus is it that our immigrants keep us strong, and sustain this belief in the value of the common man.

I have worked in companies, and I have had bosses, and they tell me what to do and I do what they say because they pay me. But when they tell me what to do they do so respectfully; if they treat me contemptuously I'll quit. I work for them but they do not own me. I call no man "Mister" or "Sir", and if I meet the President of the company I will look him square in the eye, hold out my hand to shake his as an equal, and I will call him by his first name. I will give him respect he is due for his knowledge and performance, but I abase myself to no man. If I had the privilege of meeting President Bush, I would look him in the eye and shake his hand the same way. I will not cast my eyes downward for anyone. And neither will my nation.

Europe's diplomats and politicians come from those elite segments and feel that such deference by the lower classes, including us, is theirs by right. It is, in part, precisely the fact that America was built out of Europe's huddled masses, its dregs, that they think gives them the right to tell us what to do, because they've always told the lower classes what to do. Much of their contempt for us and our culture derives from this idea that nothing valuable and profound can come from the lower classes; everything they do must be simplistic and superficial. We belong to them; the dregs of Europe have always been the chattels of the upper classes, and it is sheer impudence for us to think or act otherwise. And the lower classes have always made sacrifices for the good of the ruling elite; the idea that they should work in their own interest is also impudence.

The European diplomats and politicians seem to assume that because they feel superior to us that we must somehow feel inferior to them. They assume that their contempt for us as privileged elite to commoners must be reflected in respect by us for them as commoners to privileged elite. They assume that we share their belief in their superior wisdom and knowledge and position, and that deep down we know that they really do have the right to tell us what to do, because that's how it's always been for the relationship between them and commoners like us. As long as their diplomacy towards us is based on that assumption, it's going to keep failing and will only have the effect of driving us further away from them. The deep current of all of Europe's diplomacy towards the US now is a combination of hope that we will once again assume our proper place in the social hierarchy (i.e. at the bottom) combined with the intense nervousness that ruling elites always have when the commoners become powerful and independent.

The idea that they should make decisions about war even though we would do most of the fighting and make most of the sacrifice is completely consistent, for in Europe it was always the elites who made decisions about war, but the commoners who did most of the fighting and dying. The roles were fundamentally asymmetric; the elite are decision makers and the commoners are carry-outers, and decision makers don't soil their hands with carrying-out and shouldn't be expected to.

We don't want the Europeans to be obsequious to us; we'd just like them to stop trying to make us obsequious to them. It would be rather nice if they stopped thinking of us as their wayward children, for we are not. As long as Europe thinks of America as being European (as opposed to being made out of disaffected European refugees), then their rhetoric and diplomacy towards us will continue to fail.

A good place to start would be for them to try to explain why it would be in our best interests to do what they recommend, instead of trying to explain to us why we should automatically be willing to sacrifice our self interest because it's our lot in life to do so. Any argument which fails to appeal to American self interest, and which demands American sacrifice in the service of European self interest, will be treated with all the contempt that it deserves. Unfortunately, the only approaches that has any chance of working would require the Europeans to actually look us square in the eye and acknowledge us as equals, and the privileged do not do that to common scum like us.

denbeste.nu