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Pastimes : The Boxing Ring Revived -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (3930)	1/21/2003 9:23:45 PM
From: average joe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

The immortal words of Ayn Rand on societal obligations: "Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

To: one_less who wrote (3930)	1/21/2003 11:17:20 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

"...not turn that decision over to the state." This is not rational. The state specifically mandates that no one has the right to that decision including you or it. No. By forbidding you from killing yourself, the government is controlling your life.

To: one_less who wrote (3930)	1/21/2003 11:27:20 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

What happens when you stop fulfilling your obligations to obey traffic laws? What happens when you stop fulfilling parental obligations? etc, etc, etc. The same thing happens when I kill myself on purpose as happens when I go scuba diving and get in trouble and die. Seven people just died in an avalanche in British Columbia. Did they commit a crime by doing it? They can no longer fulfill their parental obligations. Seems to me it makes on difference whether I die from suicide, cancer, or accident. Same difference for society. Or

To: one_less who wrote (3930)	1/21/2003 11:34:43 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

The state claims the right to expect your participation in society as a member who recognizes the rights of the membership at large and who is obligated to the well being of the membership at large ... that is what humanity is. I don't see that doctrine anywhere in the founding documents of our country, in our constitution, or anywhere. What do you base that claim on? BTW, if that is actually a legitimate claim of government, then it follows necessarily that, for example, if you are a doctor capable of healing the sick, the government can force you to keep being a doctor and refuse to allow you to quit doctoring and become a painter. It can refuse to let a person trained as a teacher stop being a teacher and become a cabinetmaker. And on and on. Your presumption of the state's right to obligate me to support the well being of the membership at large is a pretty overwhelming presumption. I agree that I can voluntarily take on a very few obligations -- marriage and parenthood being the major onse. Perhaps the only ones. But if I'm not a parent or spouse, what affirmative obligation to the membership of society do I have? I have an obligation not to disrupt society in certain ways by murdering people, by stealing, etc. I have an obligation IF I choose to earn money to share part of it with the state. But if someone lets me live on their land and I choose just to live a subsistence life, growing my own food, making everything I own, the government has no right to force me to any other lifestyle.