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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (67676)	2/7/2003 5:16:32 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Exactly. You have said it much better than I have been able to, as well. By the way, Art of War should be mandatory reading to any head of state. Re pissing people off - You would not believe how bad it is in Europe. After Sept. 11, everyone was wearing American flags, but it has been months since the last time I spoke to someone sympathetic to the US, in London, Paris, Genova, Milan, and all over the French riviera. And this is urban, upscale Europe. I cannot imagine how public opinion must be like in Muslim countries. I am truly afraid for where this is going.... Take a look at this - Time magazine poll for "Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003? ?" and the US is leading by 84.5% of total votes: time.com North Korea: 7.2%, Iraq: 8.3% For example, 94% of Egyptians are now against us. Have you ever heard of such unanimous verdict in a nation? I read it is something like 80% in Kuwait. And those are the guys the US saved from Saddam. Imagine the rest of the Arab world.... I find it strange that Fred is willing to accept an animated drawing of a truck with gas tanks in it as proof that Iraq can produce WMD, but my pointing out how Bush's oil buddies are missing out on Iraqi oil and how the war distracts from economic woes of Americans at home is just idle conjecture and hypothesis. My personal favourite is the "intercepts" of two guys speaking in Arabic, who might as well be talking into mikes in Pentagon for all we know. State of the art technology, satellites, "Enemy of the State", etc and all we have as "evidence" is two guys speaking in Arabic whose identities they cannot even tell and match in some way to other recordings of their voices, in order to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is indeed those two talking and those two are officers in Iraqi state? Such voice recordings are not even accepted as evidence in a divorce, because of the unreliability of the medium and the ease of faking the output. And we are supposed to gape in fear to hear this recording of two guys speaking in Arabic about "modified vehicles" (tractors? who knows?) and sanction the death of thousands and the pillaging of their country's natural resources? I really don't think so. I think Americans should really start listening to what the world is telling them....

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (67676)	2/7/2003 9:02:08 AM
From: Fred Levine	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 70976

Sun-- >>the burden is upon you and everyone else who wishes to wage war to prove beyond all reasonable doubt war is the best course of action.<< I wish Bin Laden agreed with you before launching war. I wish Saddam read your erudite post as well. fred

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (67676)	2/7/2003 12:08:21 PM
From: chomolungma	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

I think we all agree that a decision to go to war should not be taken lightly. In a perfect world there would be no shades of gray, it would be black and white. This is not a perfect world. Personally, I don't have any one single reason why I support war against Iraq. It is a combination of many - some practical, some idealistic, some strategic - I can't pigeonhole myself into any of your categories. I try and picture the world if we do remove the present Iraq regime and then I try and picture the world if we don't. In my opinion, the world will be safer, freer and more prosperous - for America and her allies, for Iraq and its people and for the Arab world. You might disagree with me and there have been many posts to counter this opinion, but they have yet to persuade me. Most of them seem to be "whistling by the graveyard, leave him alone and he'll go away type posts." You're welcome to keep trying. I have been known to change my mind on issues in the past like the death penalty, nuclear power and the greenhouse effect. I'd like to think I have an open mind. War is not the perfect solution, but there are times when it is the best response. War certainly must be followed up by wise decisions afterwards. My optimistic nature leads me to see the possibilities of an area with a free Iraq, an independent Palestine and a changed Iran. The U.S. has made some horrible decisions in the past and maybe there's no cause for optimism that we will make better ones in the future but I think we've learned something. Yes, we helped make Saddam, yes our blind support of Israel had tragic consequences, yes our oil policies were misguided, yes we made the wrong choices at the end of the Gulf War and perhaps it is those choices that have brought us to the brink of war. Unfortunately, whatever the root causes of the conflict, war is - at this time - the best course, in my opinion. And one final thought. Sometimes you have to be willing to fight to prevent it. Everyone who's ever had an experience with a bully knows how this works. And make no mistake, Saddam is just like the playground bully, he likes being feared and force is what he understands most. My deepest hope is that we can achieve our goals without war. But like I said, you have to be willing to risk war. -Cho