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To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/13/2003 6:00:45 PM
From: epicure	Respond to of 7720

I value human life, but I do not value human suffering. I don't think it is necessary to suffer tragically, at the end of your life. You can, if you wish to, but (imo) it does not make you a better person if you do.

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/13/2003 9:59:35 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 7720

Thank you for that post. Very much.

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/14/2003 6:49:47 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

I don't look at this thread often but it caught my eye today because of the number of posts. I'm glad it did. I agree entirely with your heartfelt disclosure and other thoughts. There comes a time where there is no good reason to live. Many of us have seen a parent or other loved one "helped" along when the misery became too overwhelming. In affirmation of what you have (gently) said...to opine on the "character" of someone who must make the difficult decision to die is going beyond the intrusive and the impertinent. Well, as I think of it, I don't even want to discuss this issue given the statements I have seen presented as "arguments" against the right to die. I will happily, however, continue to enjoy the thoughtfulness of your comments...

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/14/2003 10:23:33 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

I spent a good part of my childhood carrying my brother around, dressing him, assisting him in the bathroom, handling his wheelchair, and so forth. And this was not the sort of dependency likely to terminate within a few months. He is in his forties, and still highly dependent, although his electric wheelchair allows him to get out and about. My maternal grandmother was diagnosed with congestive heart failure, and given a couple of years to live. As it happened, she eluded death for several years more, and it is true that she continued to be able to tend to herself. Nevertheless, she was easily exhausted, frequently in some pain, had to carry around a tank of oxygen, and faced a more than ordinary prospect of decline. More than most, she had to fear that any given evening was her last. Still, she managed to make some sort of peace in her life, and was grateful for the additional time. My mother- in- law ended her life with heart trouble and cancer, somewhat precipitously. Nevertheless, she lived with it for some months, under the care of her husband. I know that it was very difficult for him at the end. In turn, a few years later he had terminal cancer, and eventually needed around the clock nursing. My sister- in-law stayed towards the end, although a nurse was hired, and my wife visited several times. I have some idea of how difficult it became, yes. I initially was reacting to your objection to reservations about "checking out" prematurely, but extended it to disquiet about asking for complicity from others in the decision. I never addressed the question of rational suicide, nor even came down hard against the assisted kind. I merely tried to show that it was not a pat issue, or solely an issue of autonomy, that it reflected on the web of values by which a society sustains itself.

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/14/2003 3:57:39 PM
From: Lady Lurksalot	Respond to of 7720

Rambi, I cannot add anything to what you have penned here. I think you know enough about my background to know that I speak with some authority or, if you will, personal experience.

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/14/2003 7:44:25 PM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 7720

Die how you chose, and don't participate in anything that violates your own personal ethic of required suffering, but don't speak with such condescension on the proper way to die, or what constitutes dying with character. Amen.

To: Rambi who wrote (4377)	2/16/2003 3:00:22 PM
From: Constant Reader	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7720

Your post really resonated with me. Earlier this week, I had to take my dad to a hospital emergency room. He has been struggling with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) for over 20 years. His greatest fear has been to end up needing liquid oxygen to breathe and he has done everything possible to avoid it. Until now. Although I admire his perseverance and courage, it seems that his refusal to start using oxygen earlier complicated his situation. The doctors in the emergency room said they could barely tell his lungs were functioning, his oxygen level was 86 (I think) and they were concerned about possible heart damage. After draining his lungs of fluid, they sent him home with oxygen cannisters. Since we have not yet found one of those lightweight, small portable containers that looks like a thermos, he has to drag the container around with him on a cart. It was very hard to watch when I dined there the other night. His attitude is better than I feared and I think, if we can get one of those small portable containers, he just might not give up or refuse to get out of the house.