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Politics : DON'T START THE WAR -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: PartyTime who wrote (9097)2/17/2003 2:54:19 AM
From: Sojourner Smith  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 25898
 
I fail to see the oil logic.
It is going to cost alot of money to fight
a war with Iraq and there is a good chance Saddam will
destroy the oil fields before he goes out.
(Remember Saddam unleased into Gulf the largest oil spill in
world history.)
I haven't done the math, but the kind money spent on war could subsidize alot alternative fuel programs.
I am convinced the only reason the US does not go with more
alternative fuels already (like Brazil has), is because
the US wants to maintain income for oil producing countries.

Regarding why we didn't fight other conflicts:
We fought to stop genocide in Bosnia,
We helped to fight off starvation in Somolia,
We removed a dictator/drug dealer in Panama,
We removed a dictator in Haiti,
We helped defend Korea and succeeded for now,
We helped defend Vietnam and failed.
We fought to free China, Korea, Phillipines etc, from
the Japanese.
And Europe from the Soviets.
And the Nazis.
Ok we didn't show up for everything,
who else did?

The reason why we are going after Saddam is clear.
One can disagree on our methods, but I find it
disturbing that people can't see the facts.
Here is one of many: During the Gulf War, a US
bomber had 2 bombs left and dumped them off on a cleared
target that was not known exactly what it was being used for. It turned out later, that site was the location
of centrifuges that were being used to produce uranium.
If those bombs had not hit that building Iraq would had
an atomic bomb. Saddam's son-in-law spelled it all out
and was killed when he thought it was safe to return
after defecting.

The policy like I said is clear:
Remove Saddam from power to keep him from developing
weapons that can be passed on to others.
Create a US friendly government to help resolve the
Israel issues, which include creating a Palestinian State.
Keep Iraq from supporting Hamas.
Hopefully create an influence for Iran to become
more moderate.
Keep Saddam from hurting his own people.
Keep Saddam from dropping a bomb on Israel.

Of course you probably don't believe any of the above reasons. You think it is all oil.
Can you even imagine what it be like to live in Iraq or
North Korea? Of course you probably think the US is the one that is evil.



To: PartyTime who wrote (9097)2/17/2003 3:12:43 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 25898
 
<<...the essential view of the protesters (and probably the majority of Americans) is that the U.S. and its allies should take all possible steps short of war to squeeze Saddam's regime so tight that survival is all but impossible; and that, above all, the United States should be leading a real, all-out war against the forces of Al Qaeda, wherever they may be...>>

Strategic Advice From the Public
By BOB HERBERT
Columnist
The New York Times
February 17, 2003

Maude LeFrem, a woman in her 60's, put on a brave face as she waited for a train at the Broadway-Nassau subway stop in Lower Manhattan. She, too, had heard the rumors. The terrorists were coming. They had their eyes on the subways. Chemical weapons. Any day now. Any moment.

"I know what they're saying," she said. "Everyone's praying. We don't really know what will happen, but prayer can change things and I believe that. What am I doing different? I'm praying more, that's all."

It seemed toward the end of last week, with rumors circulating the city like a virus and cops with machine guns patrolling Grand Central Terminal, that the only available response to the hideous issues of the day for people like Ms. LeFrem — people outside the power elite — was resignation. You could pray. You could sink into the slough of denial. You could do whatever to try to fend off the paralyzing anxiety. What you couldn't do was change anything.

The duct tape fiasco underscored the helplessness of the citizenry — in New York and across the nation — against the phantom-like forces of terror. And few people believed, despite the ambivalence (or outright opposition) of ordinary Americans to a U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, that anything could be done to divert the Bush administration from its rush to war, and its potentially catastrophic aftermath.

And then, on Saturday, democracy got a desperately needed boost. With temperatures in the 20's and icy winds skimming off the rivers that frame Manhattan, a frosty assemblage of demonstrators for peace and sanity materialized. The protesters kept arriving until their numbers reached 100,000, 200,000, and still they came, chanting, singing, and linking arms symbolically with a huge and remarkable wave of fellow demonstrators across the U.S. and around the globe.

It seemed to me that the most important aspect of the U.S. protests was the demand that on this crucial issue of war the Bush administration pay at least some heed to the views, wishes and feelings of the American people.

And I think the essential view of the protesters (and probably the majority of Americans) is that the U.S. and its allies should take all possible steps short of war to squeeze Saddam's regime so tight that survival is all but impossible; and that, above all, the United States should be leading a real, all-out war against the forces of Al Qaeda, wherever they may be.

Walt Rostow, one of the ultimate hawks on Vietnam, died last week. He, along with many others, suffered from an optimism about the use of U.S. military force in that conflict that bordered on delusion. In an obituary Saturday, The Times's Todd Purdum quoted Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, an under secretary of state and attorney general in the Johnson administration, who had argued with Mr. Rostow over the efficacy of U.S. bombing.

"I finally understand the difference between Walt and me," said Mr. Katzenbach. "I was the navigator who was shot down and spent two years in a German prison camp, and Walt was the guy picking my targets."

President Bush and his hawkish advisers speak blithely about a U.S.-led invasion leading to a garden of democracy blooming in the desert soil of Iraq. I wouldn't reach for my gardening tools too quickly. What the administration has been unwilling to tell the public is the truth about some of the implications of war with Iraq — first and foremost, the bloody horror of men, women and children being blown to smithereens in the interest of peace, and then the myriad costs and dangers associated with a long-term U.S. military occupation.

As late as last week the administration tried to give the impression that the U.S. could be in and out of Iraq in as little as two years. That's a case of optimism as dangerous as Walt Rostow's.

As former Senator Gary Hart said in a conversation last week, "Most thoughtful people who don't have a bias here think there is no short-term exit strategy." More realistic, he said, is a U.S. occupation of 5 to 10 years, or longer.

Mr. Hart, who was co-chairman of a special commission on national security that issued early warnings about the nation's vulnerability to terror attacks, then mentioned the concern expressed again and again by ordinary Americans worried about war with Iraq. "Are we prepared," he asked, "for what I believe are inevitable retaliatory attacks? The answer, I think, is no."

nytimes.com