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Gold/Mining/Energy : Big Dog's Boom Boom Room -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/1/2003 9:25:37 AM
From: GREENLAW4-7  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 206325
 
DBum, The simple problem here is the level we are currently on the products, as well as the fact the OSX was pumped up above 85 and went to 110 AREA SIMPLY BASED ON A FALSE PREMIS.( last year )

Higher crude and products does not equate to higher drilling profits. Most drillers need a stable market of pricing in the product to allow some leeway with the majors. The second issue is that of Demand. We have has several instances in the past when supplies became constrained but we had good demand on good economic growth.

We now have Higher products, hurting demand, and lower supply. The normal thought here is OSX is on its way to 130 think suppiles are so tight they must drill. That simply is not true in the drilling industry.

the majors have deciced since the crash in 98, they they prefer to have 16-26 crude on stability, and a nice demand picture before they commit to higher contract rates. Today we have a World economic slowdown ( except china), tight supply, and Ceiling high products.

This looks like a recipe for disaster if you add to the picture Caracas coming back on line, Russia and OPEC in dog fight for market share and IRAQ finally becoming stable.

The outlook 6-9 months out has OSX below 65, Crude below 26, and the NG around 4-6.

Your research left out the most important ingredient, that is ECONOMIC RECOVERY. The demand side will dictate in the near term, but by next winter-early spring OSX maybe the place to be as low commodity prices spur a nice rally in out markets which will spur economic growth...ie expanding multiples.

I am not rally a MEGABEAR but actually a BULL in the osx, just not here and not yet. 2004-2005 should finally help osx bottom out and getout the excess very much like what our markets are doing now.

Look at the current fundamentals and forward P/E's of stocks like PTEN and then tell me why anyone would think we are not at or very close to a top.



To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/1/2003 9:27:48 AM
From: quehubo  Respond to of 206325
 
Dabum - OSX valuations trade on expected activity levels. Today's valuations are pricing in a fairly strong recovery in activity that has started.

The ramp rate of the recovery will determine when margins start improving with increasing pricing strength. A slide in this period of increased pricing power of one quarter has very signficant impacts on future earnings expectations. RJ had a very insightful analysis of why the ramp rate is so important when sequential quarterly earnings growth is changing 25% per quarter.

The valuations for NBR PTEN WFT BJS are strong and not much different for the activity levels we had in the Spring of 2000 as drilling ramped up.



To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/1/2003 9:50:11 AM
From: russwinter  Respond to of 206325
 
I think the disconnect between the OSX (like) price and the commodity comes down to two prevailing premises. The energy bear premise (propaganda in my view) can be read ad nauseam here and in various new releases, CNBC, etc. It (I've called it TOHOE: trust of hope over experience) holds that most if not all of the events (Venz, weather, so called Iraq war premium, and on and on) leading up to the crisis will be magically reversed, and that the world can some how be made right. The huge inventory and output shortfalls can be cured (now it's "releasing SR"). It holds that the crisis is sort of a fluke, or an outlier event, and not the natural order of things, and that any further problems (such as torched ME oil fields) are highly unlikely, or that somehow cold weather forecasts for March will be "averted", or that summer will be room temperature all across the nation. A second component of the TOHOEs is that the market quickly adjusts or overadjusts as it did in 2001 to shortages. Adjustments can be manifested through aggressive drill bit activity (new supply) and/or demand destruction.

<What needs to happen for oil service stocks to see gains of 50% plus?.

Right now I see the TOHOE premise priced to perfection in this market. My feeling is that if it actually turn up as reality (and in my mind that would be a snake eyes roll) my downside risk is still very limited. I say that because even using $25/4.00, most E&P trade at about 4X EV/cash flow, and the drillers are now about 115-118% of NAV, not that far from decade and half lows (95% when oil was $12). The degree of upside from here, is dependant on how much (*) of the TOHOE point of view actually materializes.

(*) I think the strongest point of the TOHOE view is demand destruction (and severe economic consequences). I'm not willing to just dismiss it. I don't believe however that energy prices will just give up at the Ides of March in some kind of identifiable "last gasp" that Greenlaw and other TOHOEs talk about. It will be a counter factor over time, and a hard fought battle in the price pits. If drilling activity were coming on strong, then I could see the prospect for equilibrium to be eventually reached at say $4.50-5.00 gas. Such equilibrium would still support 120-like OSX prices because it would necessitate much more drill bit activity. In other words we don't get to equilibrium solely through demand destruction, unless we got an even greater price spike.



To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/1/2003 1:09:22 PM
From: jim_p  Respond to of 206325
 
Brother bum,

The big money is not going to come into the sector as long as there is a perceived risk on oil prices collapsing after the war.

The fundamentals are better than the perception, but it's not nice to fight the street.....it always wins.

Lots of selling at OSX 90, and we are in a different market today then we were back when the OSX hit 140.

Jim



To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/1/2003 8:56:29 PM
From: whitepine  Respond to of 206325
 
dabum>Do those of you who believe the fundamentals are excellent looking forward, feel disappointed in the performance of the OSX of late? Or, is this what you expected?

What needs to happen for oil service stocks to see gains of 50% plus? Do any of you fundamentalists see an OSX 120 prior to the summer months? Or, is this something you're looking to longer term, perhaps next fall or winter?

Looking for some insights here to balance my TA.<<

dabum, I don't know if the OSX will _ever_ rise above its current level. I have stepped aside from the 'promise' of US patch stocks.

At the link, right click on the time bar and select 60 days
stockcharts.com

Canada has offered better results. Will it continue to do so? Don't know, but my positions have not disappointed.
In Oct. I posted>>
To:energyplay who wrote (14244)
From: whitepine Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 1:38 AM


Can't remember where I read the following link, but it is worth posting for those who are interested in O/G trusts in Canada.
breakoutreport.com

Link to www.globeinvestor.com has great screening ability for high income trusts. Assuming the thrust of analysis by Roach and others is correct, trusts with reasonable income seem a better alternative to treasuries and other fixed income. Personally long SJT, NCN, AVN_U.to, ERF. Planning to add more. <<<

Got part of the story right. I just did not enter positions in THY or PEY soon enough because of ignorance. Still my Canadian positions have faired well.

Regards,
whitepine



To: chowder who wrote (19362)3/2/2003 11:41:41 AM
From: Archie Meeties  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 206325
 
Dabum, OSX support is around 86. If the breakout is real then this needs to hold. If it does hold, then this will be the first sustained move above the 50dma since the last bull.

Drilling activity is underwhelming considering commodity prices, but that is changing.

The uncertainty surrounding the war is opportunity.